Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[aveca]

thats too bad about people who hold them too close..eventually those will be extinct..i dont know why people get all superior to others like that..but they do...it doesnt do the breed any justice..people who really want them and are willing to work with them should have acces to them..i see a lot of people like that..20 years from now those birds will be gone, no one will bother to write like william cook did his experiences so it will be just a legend that no longer exists..too bad but lot of people assume too much..they assume they are far more important than anyone else..then everyone including them loose in the end...on the other end of the spectrum you have your guys like my freind who has top quality show birds won in almost every east coast state with them..he works so hard to promote this near extinct bird to kids and families..he gives birds to people, his son whom he used to show with died of cancer..he told me at that point he realized what was really important in life..if a kid wants to how, this guy gives him a bird or 2 to work in...plus he told me that years ago band of racoon broke into pens that i couldnt even get into..killed off his top birds..he had to turn to all of us to get his stock back..if it wasnt for us..and if he would have held them too lose..it would have been a wash, and this breed, the real ones are rare as hens teeth..somone back in the day when australorp were setting laying records had some real deep pockets imported those birds to usa...then guess what..they got all superior to everyone else. my dogs better than your dog additude and today those birds no longer exist , maybe in a strain or 2 the genes are there, and the australians still complain openly about it desperatly trying to get their birds back..lot if them just gave up searching those egg layers of the day..i lurked on one of their threads reading this saga years ago..one of them said, if you want something ruined, send it to america..those self centered gluttonous world revolves around them people just gobble up the good things in life and look now tgey are gone or their self centeredness..ouch.

 

[plantcityhomestead]

the nice thing is , it is written by the creator of orpingtons so you know what he was doing and why.....yes dorking was added especially to white orp..they were expected to be little less heavily feathered but they slowly worked type back in..so interesting..like i said, true treasures to modern folk who lost the art of breeding poultry..if only a hand ful of people know..then no one knows..breeds become lost to time like the sad story walt posted about true hudan? (sp) and what they were supposed to look like..if only a few or only 1 person hold them too tight and dont get them around..they wind up in the dust bin of time..pay you know what to ever get any back..sometimes its a case of that person wants to dominate the breed wins, sometimes its lack of promotion, could be any number of things.it was either cook or henrey actually had a terrible time even giving the whites away...no one wanted them..at all..but henrey and cook were also bally hoo men who saw a hundred years down the road..nothing they did was for selfish gain..the heavily promoted , then sold offspring......lucky us.

i also found it interesting that vicki said earlier that dropped wing was a muscle weakness, i cant remember what page but either henrey or cooks book said same thing, that it was just that..be it heridity or lack of moving room. it is a severe muscle weakness..they did everything to eradicate it that they could....but you know how things go..somone will get some culls and not try to work it out..but instead, keep propogating it..

This is why I love BYC. We can learn from those who have retained the knowledge, and we have a source for good birds. Thank you to all of those of you who share your knowledge with us.

 

[aveca]

byc has some super people. every place has a few trouble makers who just cant stand it unless they can get things going..but for the most part you learn so much and lot of good people..there is one young guy in here, the orp breeders been good to him, set him up with good birds, he isnt really interested in show, hes interested in bettering the birds..hes like a sponge, takes it all in..hes one of those people who is gping to be a wealth of knowlege someday for people to draw on.and hes very helpful to people too.i can kind of see why hes not that interested in the shows too much..there are a few , lets say disturbed people out there that can be a real put off.theft , and sickness that can be picked up...so i get that..you almost dont want to take your very best out there....

if you get only a few "trusted buddies" and there is some sort of catastrophy be it illness or sunami or earthquake you might never ever regain what you loose for your own selfishness..everyone says buy from breeders..not as easy as it sounds..lot of work in that..most times you get lot of roosters ,a lot of people are willing to work through those things that arnt able to get the birds.. lot of breeders only give out to " trusted buddies" in the end ..no one wins..i wish more people would think hard, am i bettering the breed or myself. cook was a tireless promoter of his birds. he meant to get them out far and wide and he did..

 

[aveca]

OK, that "Fowls for the Times" book on Orpingtons requires some study. Interesting stuff. On page 27 it mentions a black-skinned and black-boned breed of poultry kept in the interior of South America. Does anyone have any idea what that breed might have been?

it is becoming quite obvious that very early asian mostly chinese people crossed the pacific, and they brought their chickens with them...silkies are blk skinned black boned birds.so the bird he is talking about is chinese decendant of some kind, which withoit todays genetic testing you would really wonder where on earth did that come from..most llikleyan ancient silki relation..when they did genetic testing on auracauna ( sp) they found that this birds genetic ancestry was chinese related to some impossible phesant chicken cross in probably prehistoric times..they are geneticlly related to a chinese breed of chicken that lays sky blue eggs..later on the dutch brought their birds down there crossed with the aracauna, brown almosy yellow eggs crossed with blue equals green egg. the native south americand call the blue eggs heavan eggs, the green ones earth eggs.. due to the genetic results they beleive that these pre historic chinese people did not travel land bridge as previously thought , but they actually crossed the ocean, brought their chickens with them..one south american island..the native...well, there are absolutly no chickens in the known fossill recrd of south america, in other words they were not native there..they were brought there by some eocene travelers..left their chicken breeds some went wild there te genetic testing was a real head scratcher or scientists..they are genetically chinese ancient poultry that were survivors there.

 

[aveca]

i should add to that, the dutch breeders liked the rumpless feature, south america is and was heavy on the prditors so those birds were a little harder to grab..better survival prospects so dutch kept those going..
fo
rgive my bad spelling, fumble tablet fingers..i always though what a romantic notion. these wild south american chicken breeds but genetic testing unlocked their secrets..like i said there are no chicken breeds found in south american fossile record. they were brought there by chinese ancients.found that paper in cornell free library also but sadly i cant remember the exact title so i so far, cant find it again.but it was so interesting i didnt forget it. it went into great detail about gentest results.
th
ere is a thread in here called whats wrong with their feathers..auracaunas born with all silkied feather..probably thre way back into prehistoric time birds like the origional..most interesting thread..but it also links those ancient chinese birds..genetic anomoly.

 

[Chris09]

Quote posted by MagicChicken
There are a number of Black Skin Black Boned breeds that it could have been one that comes to mind is the Rapanui.



Chris

 

[aveca]

That could be it Chris..they did find them amongst the other asian origion fowl of south america.

The Rapanui is named after the island that is also known as Easter Island. They are also found feral in Pitcairn and Marquesis. Rapanui fowl may be divided into two distinct races introduced and perpetuated by respective ethnic migrations. The Tapu race of Rapanui fowl are melenotic with blue-black skin and a long crow. Moa Tu' A Ivi Raa' (ember yellow-backed) and Moa Tea (grey ashe-hued) are considered to be endemic to Oceania, especially those large islands mentioned above. But these semidomestic fowl were to be introduced to the western coast of South America by Melenesian populations thousands of years before the birth of Polynesian culture. It is believed that the Olmec (earliest known culture of South America) generated the South American stocks and further refined them, a practice taken up by the their succesors, including the Incas.
There are several distinct subraces of this genotype, discussed below. They have been developed for many tens of thousands of years by the Melenesian culture that once inhabited what is now Indonesia, who first migrated to Micronesia and beyond bringing with them their domestic animals. The Tapu race of Rapanui fowl are descended from archaic fighting ruff breeds endemic to Indonesia and Melenesia. These game fowl are the female ancestors of the Tapu race of Rapanui fowl. Many of the original male founders of the Tapu Rapanui fowl were evidentally Ayam Bekisar, a strange Indonesian hybrid between Malay females and Green Junglefowl (Gallus varius) roosters.
The Olmec races are, as their name suggests, endemic to South American highland regions. Rapanui Fowl are endemic to Oceania. Both Peruvian and Chilean Indians were kept as slaves in recent history on Rapanui (Easter Island) and are believed to have reintroduced some of their native stocks of fowl to the islands. Ironic that the original ancestral home of the fowl would end up being a new home for these clearly Olmec refined stocks.
The main races of the Rapanui/Olmec fowl are described below:
1. The Quechua, which may be tailed or rumpless, is a bantam-sized equivalent of the Tapu Rapanui Fowl. Quechua have an abrupt, high pitched multiple syllable crow. This fowl may have a long fifth toe and yellow legs. They may be tufted in stocks mixed with Quetro. Many exhibit a diminutive crest and most will have conservative muffs and/or beards. Greenish-gray eggs are the norm, but some lay spotted pinkish eggs and others a yellowish-tinted egg. They are found on various islands, including Pitcairn, Marquesis, and Easter, and on the mainland in Bolivia and Argentina.
2. Black Quechua Olmec are similar to the typical Quechua but have blue-black skin and bones and black or blue legs (they are the only South American member of this group with characteristic black skin), and produce glossy green eggs or blue eggs. The Black Quechua Olmec is generally rumpless and never has tufts. It is found in Costa Rica, Ecuador and Mexico.
3. Quetro are tiny to moderate-sized bantams with very small wattles and comb. They are remarkable fliers and generally silent. The crow is described as a "laughing crow." These fowl have ear tufts, though the ear tufts of the females are often very small, and very little or no bare facial skin shows. These birds are always tailed. Females tend to be strikingly beautiful, some with dark mahogany breasts and others with pale salmon breasts or wheaten. All female Quetro will exhibit unusual and highly concealing patterns in the wings and hackles. In pattern, the breast of the male is similar to the hackle. The hackle itself is often hair-like and it is not unusual to produce birds with "cowlicks" in the hackles or slightly frizzled individuals. Egg color is highly variable. Some strains usually produce lilac or an intense grey lilac blue. Other strains lay a vivid orange egg, others red ochre and still others lay spotted pink or clear green eggs. They are found only in the Peruvian Highlands and can still be observed on the reed islands of Lake Titicaca. The Quetro is believed to have been a highly sacred animal to the Olmec and some of the subsequent Andean cultures.
4. The last group consists of the Ayam Pelung derived rumpless games and basket fowl like the Wallikiki, Kainga, and Colloncas, several related rumpless or tailed quail bantams with greatly curtailed wattles, generally lacking combs, and often prominently spotted. Females will often closely resemble the females of the Quetro but lack their tufts and tails. Bare facial skin is generally not evident and the legs are willow or dark but never yellow. Muffs and beards are not present nor are crests or tufts though a few will have the irregular sprig of a tuft. These birds are very quiet when compared to Rapanui breeds. Males may be hen feathered. They lay white, off white, tinted, yellowish or dark aqua or grayish tinted round eggs. This group is found in Sri Lanka, Bali, the Solomon Islands, Fiji, Pitcairn, Peru and Chile.
Colloncas (Chilean highlands) and Quetro (Peruvian highlands) are descended from the Rapanui race Pakeke (Seafarer stocks) including the Moa Garahuraju (multiple coloured spots) and Moa Totara (frizzled rumpless bantam).
Colloncas De Artes is the composite breed generated by the crossing of Quetro and Colloncas stocks. In North America, the Colloncas De Artes were refined into heirloom varieties of what we call Araucana. In the U.K., Quechua De Artes, the composite breed generated by the crossing of Quechua bantams with Quetros were exported to Europe during the Falklands dispute period. As a consequence, much of the western and northern European countries' tinted egg breeds are derived from Chilean Indian stock and as such are probably more correctly defined as Chilean Araucanas.
The so-called Americauna appears to be in large part a refined Quechua de Artes without tufts but carrying the brown breasted demes of the Quetro.
Genetically, the Rapanui/Olmec are related closely to Indonesia's archaic game fowl the Ayam Cemani, Ayam Pelung, Ayam Bekisar and Ayam Katai and, tellingly, also to Japan's Koeyoshi Long Crowers. The genetic foundation of these Oceanic breeds appears to be the Indonesian Red Junglefowl, Gallus g. bankiva, which was the ancestor of bankivoid game fowl like the Malay. Melenesian and Indonesian cultures domesticated the Indonesian Red Junglefowl at least twelve hundred years before the cultures of mainland Asia domesticated the Burmese Red Junglefowl, G. g. gallus. In short, two divergent cultures domesticated two different wild subspecies, generating two different lineages of domestic fowl. The Burmese Red Junglefowl arrived as the dominant founder probably due in large part to their promiscuous reproductive strategy which contrasts with that of the monogamous Indonesian Red Junglefowl which is also not as disease resistant as its mainland cousin.
Peruvian ethnozoologists of Japanese extraction are responsible for the conservation and breeding of these ancient fowl. Genetics and morphology suggest that the South American fowl (most commonly known asAraucanas) are descended from these two ancient races of Oceanic fowl.​

 

[Chris09]

Most likely the Rapanui [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]has some Ayam Cemani in it. The Ayam Cemani is a very old breed that is from Java and the parent stock to a few Black Skinned breeds.[/FONT]


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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chris[/FONT]

 

[capayvalleychick]

I have been reading what Bob says about finding someone to raise the same strain, and later sharing birds. A few years ago, I gave someone an extra SG Dorking cockerel and she gave me one of hers, that she had bought from Superior Farms. So, we've been breeding the same strains, separated by about 150 miles. She doesn't have the SOP. She uses an interesting old book, The Call Of The Hen, by Walter Hogan. At the time that she chose her cockerel, she did have a better eye for size than I did, because I was too hung up on getting the color right at that point. Now I'm trying to concentrate on bigger size, better type, more length, the elusive rectangle.
This past weekend, she gave me a bird that would be the grandson of the rooster that I have been using. This wasn't planned but it fits with what Bob says to do. I'm trying to decide whether I should use him. His breast should be bigger, his tail set's way too high, wings not level. I'm wondering if he's worth breeding to see what he produces?



Kim

 

[Robert Blosl]

I don't know any thing about the breed this guy is in great feather and condition. Does your birds have better type than this male? You could cross him onto one or two of your best type females. You once told me the sources out there are limited to about one so you could not find anything any different than what you have now. I will let Walt step in I am sure he could help you more and the fellow from Yellow House that has the Whites. Thanks for the picture. Maybe some of these hatcheries that all these folks get their chickens from may have a sleeper strain around. Bob