Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Robert Blosl]

Quote: I don't see any reason to cross to improve a breed. There are enough breeders who has the breed to get birds that would score Score 91 or more points. What you do is breed them up to 93 points over the next three to five years. The big question is what breeds do you want to cross up to????

There are many good breeds out there that you can obtain good birds from as I see no reason to cross to re invert the wheel..

Now the big question is why do you want to cross a different breed onto another breed to get this breed to your liking???

Let us at least try to find you something worth getting if that is what you want unless you are trying to get a breed that matches the color of your house.

If you are a beginner and never had standard breed Heritage Chickens you don't need to start breeding these very hard colored strains that have been breed down into the gutter.

It makes more logical sense to go with a breed that is in the gutter genetically. I hate to be mean but this is like Triage. I am a old medic and I was trained to triage wounded solders. Some are to bad off to save and some are not that badly wounded so we try to help the poor guys that we can do surgery on and save them. We had limited time and man and women power to work with them in a MASH environment. This is the same with in dangered chickens. We need to try to help the ones that are respectable and don't worry about the ones that are at hatchery level. Maybe some day a person will come along and has skills in breeding and can get the hatchery chicken and bring them up to a level of the top 75% breeds we have left to save.

Hope I make my point. Some breeds are just beyond help. However, if you want to make the crosses to bring them back to the standard level in the next 20 years go for it.

This is a issue we have all the time on this tread. Many who want to convert from hatchery stock to Heritage pick on breeds that sound good on paper or have pretty paintings in the catalogs and have never I mean NEVER looked like these painting in a 100 years. Yet you think they are around.

I got a phone call from a fellow who wants some White Plymouth Rock and Mohawk large fowl this spring. He has Black Javas and that is a great breed but their leg color are off. Every buddy else he talks to says their leg color is dead on. I told him he needs to get some birds from these folks who have the corect leg color and stop trying to improve what he has. They may have come from a famous farm in Illinois but if they where that good they should at least have correct leg color.

Think be for you jump. That's my wisdom for the night. Thank god I don't want all these weird breeds that are in the toilet for appearance. I wish you all the best in your search but come on lets use common sense on some of these breeds. bob

 

[Robert Blosl]

One of the nicest bunch of Dark Cornish Bantams I have seen in a while
owned and breed by L J Derouen from Lousiana.



E L Morse New Hampshire one of his two pullets. Notice the finish on this female.



E L Morse Blue Orpington

Tony Davis Black Austrolorp Ckl


Some of the pictures of the large fowl and show champions at the past Pensacola Poultry Show held this past weekend.

More to come as they come in from the photographer who took the picture for us. bob

http://www.panhandlepoultryclub.webs.com/

 

[Cedarknob]

Yard Full of Rocks (just love that name btw) I'll pm you about that...

Meanwhile, my DH caught my post & we just had a very interesting conversation about his Great-Grandparent's flock.--

Apparently his Great-grandmother preferred Leghorns as frying birds ("as opposed to a roasting bird there of course being roasting birds and frying birds").
I asked how was it that the older folks talk about "killing *a* bird for Sunday dinner", how could one bird have made fried chicken for everyone?
DH tells me that " ALL their birds where very large, not like chickens for sale in the grocery store today, more like the 15 # turkey we have thawing in the kitchen just now".

His Great-grandmother's strain of White Leghorns (this would have been in mtns of Va 50-150 yrs ago time frame) according to my DH's recollection
"were a dual purpose breed -- eggs & frying birds" a big point was made that the eggs always hatched out almost entirely cockerels, which were very large overall sized, with a good meaty thigh & a good piece of meat on the wing part also, while the hens laid lots of eggs. I'm personally not certain how that compares to anything today, or even to the SOP at the time. I just find it interesting that those were the specific details and qualities of his Great-grandparent's strain of White Leghorns.

My DH also noted that ALL the breeds his Great grandparents kept including Barred Rock and RIR and poss. others? Where much larger than today, my DH says they were all as large as the full grown Bourbon Red Turkey pullets we currently have. I questioned his memory of this and he assured me that these "Roasting Chickens" certainly were the size of any store bought Roasting Turkey we've ever cooked and he recalls his Great Grandmother would in one stroke using a meat cleaver split the *chicken* drumstick to feed 2 grand kids per drumstick (apparently her using the meat clever thus was very memorable).

So when we on this Thread are talking about *Large Fowl* Heritage breeds, keeping in mind that these breeds at one time were large enough that 1 birds really did feed a hungry farm family and the preacher on Sunday might be useful as a benchmark of where the breeds are compared to 50-150 yrs ago. From some of the recent photos on this Thread it looks like getting the size back is going well among breeders, and I look forward to enjoying that too!

Compared to what we buy now from a hatchery, the heritage breeds were much larger. I remember a time when hatcheries sold chicks that were more true to type; you could easily separate the chickens if you had ordered RIRs, NHs, and mixed in some of the 'new' production reds to boot. Leghorn cockerels did make great fryers; they were larger than today's laying strains, laid less eggs in that first year, but were productive layers for about three years. Though breeding and maintaining of pure, heritage chickens [as well as every breed of livestock] was starting to change even before my early childhood, some still kept the heritage breeds strictly for their original utility value, and the breeds chosen by which ones best met their needs or preferences. In fact, someone breeding with a lot of emphasis on producing a show winner would have been looked down on by some folks as "ruining" the breed, and a show strain and a heritage strain were two different lines. [There was no chance that a heritage breeder was going to use a Leghorn hen to breed with if she was a mediocre layer, just because won every show she was entered in.]

Not knockin' on show breeders, the heritage breeds are still in existence [for the most part] only because of them, and I hope to show my birds [large fowl Cornish] someday.

 

[Pozees]

I don't see any reason to cross to improve a breed. There are enough breeders who has the breed to get birds that would score Score 91 or more points. What you do is breed them up to 93 points over the next three to five years. The big question is what breeds do you want to cross up to????

There are many good breeds out there that you can obtain good birds from as I see no reason to cross to re invert the wheel..

Now the big question is why do you want to cross a different breed onto another breed to get this breed to your liking???

Let us at least try to find you something worth getting if that is what you want unless you are trying to get a breed that matches the color of your house.

If you are a beginner and never had standard breed Heritage Chickens you don't need to start breeding these very hard colored strains that have been breed down into the gutter.

It makes more logical sense to go with a breed that is in the gutter genetically. I hate to be mean but this is like Triage. I am a old medic and I was trained to triage wounded solders. Some are to bad off to save and some are not that badly wounded so we try to help the poor guys that we can do surgery on and save them. We had limited time and man and women power to work with them in a MASH environment. This is the same with in dangered chickens. We need to try to help the ones that are respectable and don't worry about the ones that are at hatchery level. Maybe some day a person will come along and has skills in breeding and can get the hatchery chicken and bring them up to a level of the top 75% breeds we have left to save.

Hope I make my point. Some breeds are just beyond help. However, if you want to make the crosses to bring them back to the standard level in the next 20 years go for it.

This is a issue we have all the time on this tread. Many who want to convert from hatchery stock to Heritage pick on breeds that sound good on paper or have pretty paintings in the catalogs and have never I mean NEVER looked like these painting in a 100 years. Yet you think they are around.

I got a phone call from a fellow who wants some White Plymouth Rock and Mohawk large fowl this spring. He has Black Javas and that is a great breed but their leg color are off. Every buddy else he talks to says their leg color is dead on. I told him he needs to get some birds from these folks who have the corect leg color and stop trying to improve what he has. They may have come from a famous farm in Illinois but if they where that good they should at least have correct leg color.

Think be for you jump. That's my wisdom for the night. Thank god I don't want all these weird breeds that are in the toilet for appearance. I wish you all the best in your search but come on lets use common sense on some of these breeds. bob

I guess I would come back to the question previously asked, what *are* the breeds those of us new to breeding LF Heritage should be considering? I personally have a deep affection for Speckled Sussex and Leghorns, so I am beginning my endeavors with 25 Speckled Sussex from Tony Albritton and 10-12 Light Brown Leghorns from Duane Urch this coming spring. I cannot fully explain why I love these two breeds, I can only tell you that my previous experience with Speckled Sussex, even hatchery birds, was 100% excellent, and that the Leghorns I had in the past were White, which I liked very much but which I think are more vulnerable in my current environment , and the colored Leghorns, to me, are stunning, and if I could I would have pairs/trios/groups of every color LF Leghorn I could lay my hands on.

You say name five, but I can name a dozen on my wish list for some point in the near or distant future, and I guess what we really want to know is which are the most in danger of never again approaching SOP, which we can somehow help, even if it is just in the keeping of breeding groups for which we follow the direction of a mentor on which chicks to keep from each hatch, which matings to do, etc. If we have good mentors who teach us what to look for, we are not only willing to learn and heed their advice, we are *eager* for it. Maybe that isn't fair, I'm lumping all newbies together - *I* am eager for it.

That said, here is my current wish list, after the Speckled Sussex and colored Leghorns:

Ancona
Dorking
Dominique
Java
Minorca
Plymouth Barred Rock
Russian Orloff
Cochin
Penedescenca
Sumatra
Cubalaya

So talk to me, breeders, tell me what to forget about, what you have that you want partners in over the next few years, what is a pure pipe dream. If all I ever have is the Speckled Sussex and Leghorns, I'll be a happy person; if I can add breeds I can help sustain, I will be enormously satisfied.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote: Ancona
Dorking
Dominique
Java
Minorca
Plymouth Barred Rock
Russian Orloff
Cochin
Penedescenca
Sumatra
Cubalaya

Russian Orloffs, Penedescenca not sure of as Heritage. Cubalay are rare I guess have no clue where to get any. Ancona is also not making a mark in my mind. Dorkings very rare some good whites out there in the North east. Javas coming back Minorcas Great strain in Minn. Plymouth Rocks some good ones coming along posted on this tread and great strain out of Ohio. Cochins I think of Tom Roebuck Sumartra Doug Ackers in Indians. Just my thoughts. I am going to start with a trio of Mottled Javas super rare and will do my best to get numbers for interested folks then will bow out and get back to another breed . Dominique New York Reds had some great ones and can tell you where to get his old line. He did a bang up job of breeding them up to win even at shows. Keep the lists coming it will give us something to talk about.

 

[fowlman01]

Compared to what we buy now from a hatchery, the heritage breeds were much larger. I remember a time when hatcheries sold chicks that were more true to type; you could easily separate the chickens if you had ordered RIRs, NHs, and mixed in some of the 'new' production reds to boot. Leghorn cockerels did make great fryers; they were larger than today's laying strains, laid less eggs in that first year, but were productive layers for about three years. Though breeding and maintaining of pure, heritage chickens [as well as every breed of livestock] was starting to change even before my early childhood, some still kept the heritage breeds strictly for their original utility value, and the breeds chosen by which ones best met their needs or preferences. In fact, someone breeding with a lot of emphasis on producing a show winner would have been looked down on by some folks as "ruining" the breed, and a show strain and a heritage strain were two different lines. [There was no chance that a heritage breeder was going to use a Leghorn hen to breed with if she was a mediocre layer, just because won every show she was entered in.]

Not knockin' on show breeders, the heritage breeds are still in existence [for the most part] only because of them, and I hope to show my birds [large fowl Cornish] someday.

Tell us what a heritage breeder is/was. Real show breeders breed to have their birds do what they were intended to do. Maybe you need to check out birds in a show.

Walt

 

[mschlumb]

I guess I would come back to the question previously asked, what *are* the breeds those of us new to breeding LF Heritage should be considering? I personally have a deep affection for Speckled Sussex and Leghorns, so I am beginning my endeavors with 25 Speckled Sussex from Tony Albritton and 10-12 Light Brown Leghorns from Duane Urch this coming spring. I cannot fully explain why I love these two breeds, I can only tell you that my previous experience with Speckled Sussex, even hatchery birds, was 100% excellent, and that the Leghorns I had in the past were White, which I liked very much but which I think are more vulnerable in my current environment , and the colored Leghorns, to me, are stunning, and if I could I would have pairs/trios/groups of every color LF Leghorn I could lay my hands on.

You say name five, but I can name a dozen on my wish list for some point in the near or distant future, and I guess what we really want to know is which are the most in danger of never again approaching SOP, which we can somehow help, even if it is just in the keeping of breeding groups for which we follow the direction of a mentor on which chicks to keep from each hatch, which matings to do, etc. If we have good mentors who teach us what to look for, we are not only willing to learn and heed their advice, we are *eager* for it. Maybe that isn't fair, I'm lumping all newbies together - *I* am eager for it.

That said, here is my current wish list, after the Speckled Sussex and colored Leghorns:

Ancona
Dorking
Dominique
Java
Minorca
Plymouth Barred Rock
Russian Orloff
Cochin
Penedescenca
Sumatra
Cubalaya

So talk to me, breeders, tell me what to forget about, what you have that you want partners in over the next few years, what is a pure pipe dream. If all I ever have is the Speckled Sussex and Leghorns, I'll be a happy person; if I can add breeds I can help sustain, I will be enormously satisfied.

If I were you I wouldn't get too anxious about adding a bunch of breeds. What these breeds need are people who are dedicated breeders, who can really focus and improve one or two breeds at a time. I would stick to your Sussex and Leghorns for now and get those up and going before you add anything else. If you have twenty different breeds and no time or space to devote to breeding quality then what good is having them? That's not adding quality birds to the whole population.
Really all the breeds on your list could use more breeders specifically Anconas and Dorkings and Javas. But as I said before focus more on quality rather than quantity
Having said that I just want to add that Orloffs and Penedescencas aren't recognized and can't be labeled as "heritage", however if these are breeds you like its no ones place to say you shouldn't breed them.
Just my suggestion.

 

[Marengoite]

The reason you can't get the same Heritage breed, like the Buckeye, by recreating is because the "Foundation" Breeds have been crossed with breeds like leghorns. That is why it is important to keep the foundation breeds pure.

I understand that we can't duplicate the breeding because we're not starting from the same place. But that wasn't my question.

Chris said:


To which I asked:

If conformity to the SOP does not define a breed, then what does? And what is the indefinable something that is necessary to make it "truly" the breed?

I would understand that we couldn't duplicate a century old breeding program because we don't have the same stock available, but if we could, and the breed conformed to the SOP, why would it not be a "true" version of the breed?

And this goes to the question of what makes a chicken breed? I know what makes a breed in dogs and hogs and cows and horses. If I duplicated Herr Louis Dobernan's breeding program and re-created the Doberman pinscher, I could never get it registered with the AKC because it is a closed registry. As I understand chickens, there is no such thing. Correct? So what constitutes a "true" breed of chicken?

Just asking.I'm not interested in re-creating a breed, but I with all this talk of cross-breeding to "fix" a breed, then how do we define a breed for fowl? For turkeys, it is even less clear as most color variations are "varieties" of color rather than a different breed of turkey. But I could be wrong there too. I don't pretend to be anything but a raiser of turkeys - not even at propagator level.

 

[Pozees]

Ancona
Dorking
Dominique
Java
Minorca
Plymouth Barred Rock
Russian Orloff
Cochin
Penedescenca
Sumatra
Cubalaya

Russian Orloffs, Penedescenca not sure of as Heritage. Cubalay are rare I guess have no clue where to get any. Ancona is also not making a mark in my mind. Dorkings very rare some good whites out there in the North east. Javas coming back Minorcas Great strain in Minn. Plymouth Rocks some good ones coming along posted on this tread and great strain out of Ohio. Cochins I think of Tom Roebuck Sumartra Doug Ackers in Indians. Just my thoughts. I am going to start with a trio of Mottled Javas super rare and will do my best to get numbers for interested folks then will bow out and get back to another breed . Dominique New York Reds had some great ones and can tell you where to get his old line. He did a bang up job of breeding them up to win even at shows. Keep the lists coming it will give us something to talk about.

Thanks Bob. I received earlier this year an email from someone who has Javas who says they are making her crazy because they keep going broody - which to me sounds ideal; I like the idea of hens hatching and raising their own young, and believe that is one of the basic instincts I would want to encourage. Self perpetuation.

 

[Hangtown Farms]

I guess I would come back to the question previously asked, what *are* the breeds those of us new to breeding LF Heritage should be considering? I personally have a deep affection for Speckled Sussex and Leghorns, so I am beginning my endeavors with 25 Speckled Sussex from Tony Albritton and 10-12 Light Brown Leghorns from Duane Urch this coming spring. I cannot fully explain why I love these two breeds, I can only tell you that my previous experience with Speckled Sussex, even hatchery birds, was 100% excellent, and that the Leghorns I had in the past were White, which I liked very much but which I think are more vulnerable in my current environment , and the colored Leghorns, to me, are stunning, and if I could I would have pairs/trios/groups of every color LF Leghorn I could lay my hands on.

You say name five, but I can name a dozen on my wish list for some point in the near or distant future, and I guess what we really want to know is which are the most in danger of never again approaching SOP, which we can somehow help, even if it is just in the keeping of breeding groups for which we follow the direction of a mentor on which chicks to keep from each hatch, which matings to do, etc. If we have good mentors who teach us what to look for, we are not only willing to learn and heed their advice, we are *eager* for it. Maybe that isn't fair, I'm lumping all newbies together - *I* am eager for it.

That said, here is my current wish list, after the Speckled Sussex and colored Leghorns:

Ancona
Dorking
Dominique
Java
Minorca
Plymouth Barred Rock
Russian Orloff
Cochin
Penedescenca
Sumatra
Cubalaya

So talk to me, breeders, tell me what to forget about, what you have that you want partners in over the next few years, what is a pure pipe dream. If all I ever have is the Speckled Sussex and Leghorns, I'll be a happy person; if I can add breeds I can help sustain, I will be enormously satisfied.

what flavor penedesenca do you want ?