Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Marengoite]

Unless it is obvious i wouldn't think you could DQ, because that's just your estimate. The standard does say. . . "In any case where evidence is doubtful the bird shall be presumed to be acceptable"(p. 32) That's the reason I was thinking that if the judge was not 100% sure and had a precise weight he/she couldn't DQ based on weight as the evidence would be doubtful. As an exhibitor I might not trust their ability to feel a bird and guess weight.

Thanks for the clarification.

I would say, however, that it may take a little practice and a lot of experience, but judging weight by heft or feel is not that difficult. As part of 4-H, we weighed our meat chickens once a week and by the time you handle and weight 20 birds, you pretty much get a feel for where they are going to hit the scale. By the end of the summer, we were pretty consistent to +/- 4 oz. when guessing. In fact, if we were off by that much, we didn't consider it a good guess. Would you feel that strongly about requiring every bird to be weighed if a judge could consistently call the weight of any bird he handles to within +/- a quarter pound?

 

[mschlumb]

What changes them is winning. When judges select for specific traits, including size, those breeding to win, breed to what judges select. Being rewarded for breeding outside standard is well known among AKC dog show competitors.

An Irish Setter can go to a field trial, a Greyhound can participate in a lure coursing trial, a Collie can compete in herding trials, and when someone wants a dog that can actually fulfill its intended purpose, they can look for offspring of dam and sire who compete and win at those events. They may or may not have AKC Championships, fads come and go in the breed competition world, but if a Shepherd can herd, and you need a dog that can herd, you should not care about seeing that Ch before the names of the parents.

Judges in the AKC world who consistently call for wickets to measure height get entries from those whose dogs are within standard. It takes forever to measure a large class of 13" Beagles - but you know the winner meets standard. Some show secretaries avoid hiring them because it messes up the schedule, and if the APA show world is at all similar, unless the APA begins requiring weighing all entrants or all winners, it will probably not become common. If bigger birds are the preference and it isn't just a fad, the breed clubs probably need to modify their standards.

Back on topic, I would like to hear more about Red Sussex I'm conflicted about whether it is intelligent, reasonable, or possible to take a flock of Speckled Sussex, breed to that standard, but also use some of the flock to try and create Red Sussex - my simplistic take on this suggestion is that one would use those flock members with the least speckling, especially after a molt. How far off am I?

Good point!! I think it would be great for someone to work on Red Sussex, I have only ever seen pictures of them and have never seen them in person.

Perhaps the statement by Prof. Bramwell was missed that Michael is a phenom with exhibition poultry? Maybe we should be picking his brain instead squabbling about details readily available in the SOP
Just saying,.
Karen

Dr. Bramwell is being nice. I don't consider myself an expert, that would be insulting to those who have more experience than I do. I have been around exhibition birds for practically my whole life and am always happy to share my opinion.

 

[mschlumb]

Thanks for the clarification.

I would say, however, that it may take a little practice and a lot of experience, but judging weight by heft or feel is not that difficult. As part of 4-H, we weighed our meat chickens once a week and by the time you handle and weight 20 birds, you pretty much get a feel for where they are going to hit the scale. By the end of the summer, we were pretty consistent to +/- 4 oz. when guessing. In fact, if we were off by that much, we didn't consider it a good guess. Would you feel that strongly about requiring every bird to be weighed if a judge could consistently call the weight of any bird he handles to within +/- a quarter pound?

That's the key word there IF. If a judge can do that that's great. But still I would want to be really sure if I were to DQ a bird that wasn't obviously overweight and was close. As an exhibitor I could really challenge his descion if the bird was close, becasue I don't know how accurae any one judge is. As far as i would be concerned it was merely a guess. As i posted previously a quarter pound of underweight can mean the difference between a point cut and a DQ. I see where your coming from but I still feel if one bird has to be weighed then all of them should be weighed, just be fair.

 

[math ace]

Thank you Don and Dragonlady, some great ideas, will research them both....... I was thinking something more along the lines of a scale that had a flat, broad base that I could put a cardboard box on and set the chicken in it.

I use a commercial digiatal scale. It has a very small base since it was not meant to weight living chickens LOL.
I lay a piece of wood on it so that the chickens have a broad base that they can get some "grab" on and relax a little, while I weigh them.
My scale has the ability to zero out after I add the broad "chicken" base to the scale. This little feature might be something in want to look into if you are thinking about adding your own base while weighing the chickens.

 

[math ace]

I would like to see this14 lbs Buff Orpington on a scale.

Also if he is 14 lbs he would/ will be a DQ at a APA show. [ He is more than 20% the Standard weight ]

Chris

That might be true, BUT the cockerel would be great for bringing size into a flock. Sometimes those outliers that aren't good for showing make EXCELLENT breeders to improve the flock as a whole..

 

[math ace]

Hey, I am not trying to blame anybody or be antagonistic, I'm just saying you not be well recieved if you walked into a show hall with a set of scales, it's unfortunate but that's just the way it is.... As breeders we just need to make a choice..breed a big bird to win, or breed one more in line with the standard. I hope majority of us stick with standard guidelines.

If these two things don't coincide, then what's the point? If a bird does not meet the SOP and wins at a SOP sancutioned event, then what does that say about the SOP?
In breeding heritage breeds, we are trying to bring the birds back to their glory days. We are trying to KEEP the traits that made them so wonderful years ago. When a bird wins or places, that is a sign of approval, a sign that the breeder is doing right by the breed.

JUDGES... I wonder how much SIZE matters? How much does SIZE influence your decisions? IF two birds are EQUAL in every measure except size, would you choose the heavier bird that you think might be outside of the SOP weight range OR the smaller one that is within the SOP weight range? Has a judge on BYC ever called for a bird to be weighed?

Honestly, when I've been to shows, I didn't pay attention to who was winning. I was just awestuck at the SIZE of some of the entries and didn't pay attention to the awards.

 

[math ace]

Who told you that? I have disqualified birds for weight w/o actually weighing them when they were obviously way over or under weight. [usually under]

Here's what the Standard says: "When size & weight cannot be determined by comparison, it is advisable to require the weighing of the specimens."

Sorry, I was posting as I read along to catch up.
How often do you disqualify birds for being OVER the weight limit?

I am asking not to fight. I am honestly curious to see if the over weight issue is as bad as I think it is based on the shows that I have been too. There have been Some REALLY BIG Roosters at these shows. I almost could of put a saddle on them and rode them home LOL.

 

[math ace]

Absolutely. On a breed list I'm on, someone brought up the idea that since so many breeds are oversize per the Sop, that perhaps all breeds should have their SoP weights upped by at least a half pound due to the better feed available. It was a good point, but my take is that isn't not so much better feed, as less exercise that accounts for the overall increase in weight. A coop potato isn't going to be active and lively and a good forager, which happen to be the very thing that draws people to these old breeds. Raise more of those old breeds the way great grandma did and you won't have to worry about them being oversize.

This makes PERFECT sense and goes back to the very nature of a heritage breed.

 

[thedragonlady]

Absolutely. On a breed list I'm on, someone brought up the idea that since so many breeds are oversize per the Sop, that perhaps all breeds should have their SoP weights upped by at least a half pound due to the better feed available. It was a good point, but my take is that isn't not so much better feed, as less exercise that accounts for the overall increase in weight. A coop potato isn't going to be active and lively and a good forager, which happen to be the very thing that draws people to these old breeds. Raise more of those old breeds the way great grandma did and you won't have to worry about them being oversize.

Most of the really large birds at shows are NOT fat, but have larger frames than the rest of their breed.

I am 5' 9" tall, and I have pretty strong arms and hands from years of riding . I have always been able to hold a LF cock bird in one hand with my fingers around his hocks, and his body resting on my arm. Not with these big guys ! My hands are not large enough to go around their hocks, and I end up holding them 2 handed , and still my fingers on both hands will not go around both hocks . That's bone, not fat which should be penalized.

Better feed is one of the causes of the size/ weight increase, but the frame size increase is primarily fueled by what wins ! These birds with a few exceptions, are not couch potatoes . It takes a lot of exercise to grow out a really big one who looks to be in one piece, and well conditioned , just as it did for my Mastiffs... BOB Westminster 1972.... A 34" tall , 225 lb dog requires lots of exercise to be sound, just as these big chickens do. The over fat ones just end up crippled.

 

[Bentley]

Most of the really large birds at shows are NOT fat, but have larger frames than the rest of their breed.

Completely agree!

Birds have become bigger because breeders have selected for this trait, just as many bantams have become smaller because breeders have selected for this as well. Diet and nutrition is very important, don't get me wrong, but it has much MUCH less of an impact on overall bird frame size and fleshing than their genetic potential they received from their parents. This has been documented time and time again in research, genetics accounts for 80-85% of overall bird size and proper nutrition can finish that off to allow them to reach their genetic potential. Of course you have to discount the obvious situations of neglecting to offer a balanced diet because these birds will certainly suffer.

On this note, I might add a bit on hatchery birds in relation to bird size. Commercial hatcheries serve a beautiful purpose, in my youth I purchased many many birds from commercial hatcheries which helped give me my taste for raising birds and gave me invaluable experience with various breeds and allowed me to 'dabble' with crossing breeds to learn first hand about how genetic traits work in the 'real world'. That said, they are a businesses and they are trying to stay in business. They rarely (if ever) breed from pairs or trios to produce chicks for sale to the general public. They colony breed and usually have little time or man power to do much selection. They are a business and work with volume.

What happens under their scenario is that if they get a nice line of birds with proper size but fail to continue to weigh birds when selecting breeders for succeeding generations, the average weight of the population will slowly drift towards a 'normal sized' chicken, because that is 'normal'. Nature usually does not favor the extremes within a population, especially from a reproductive standpoint. Over sized or undersized animals do not reproduce as well. The definition of where the line is when a bird becomes oversized or undersized is a whole other matter, but the fact remains, in nature the extremes within a population don't fair as well yet we often breed for extremes.

In bantams, the smaller breeders make the birds through selection the worse the egg production usually gets and the poorer the fertility, this can occur in large fowl too on the extreme end. So when breeding in colony pens the birds closer to the normal size and shape usually lay more eggs and usually have better fertility which obviously results in the more 'normal' birds producing more chicks. This is what the hatcheries make money on, volume, more chicks to sell because they can only raise prices so much for better quality birds.