Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[fowlman01]

The Buttercup I posted earlier was Res Ch Med at the show I went to this past weekend, and the Ch Med was a Dark Brown Leghorn.

I love to see that.

w.

 

[Pozees]

Haha, I guess I am brave or stupid to even respond to this question on this thread again but here I go.

First of all, I am NOT against a closed breeding population in any way shape or form. I never called anyones inbred birds muts. The goal of a breeder is often to inbreed, line breed, whatever you want to call it (yes I know the difference between the two), but breed birds with known genetics in order to control the genetic diversity because that is the way you end up getting the best offspring. This is why Walt has been so successful with his birds, at this point after 30 years of a closed breeding population he should have far fewer dramatic culls because in the beginning most of the dramatic detrimental genes the birds carry are finally expressed through controlled and planned breeding of relatives to each other and can be culled. Kudos to Walt and all the many many other people that have achieved success in the show ring, that takes a lot of dedication and knowledge of their birds. One of the challenged breeds I took on a few years ago I hatched over 800 birds the first generation and culling was easy because there were so many obvious and glaring faults. With that breed I now still hatch several hundred each generation but the culling is getting more fine tuned and difficult because the 'low hanging fruit' has removed so the smaller details of specific color patterns, type, size, comb etc are harder to identify until they are adults. This is an indication the the genetic diversity is being reduced and the population is becoming more homogeneous genetically with each generation.

To answer your question about out-crossing, again, I could back track and just go with the flow but I still believe, AT TIMES, that out crossing to different breeds might become necessary in certain breeds where quality is difficult or impossible to obtain or traits are nearly absent from that line. Again, this should be carefully controlled and carefully planned and only done when necessary. Never did I suggest just willy nilly cross breeding birds. The majority of my breeds I raise I started with 100+ day old chicks, often of marginal quality, and through hatching mass numbers I make genetic progress. Most of these I have never even brought in new genetics from a different line within the same breed. It is not necessary and I have been able to make great progress with the birds I began with. Partly because many of these breeds are less common so the stock I started with had great variation in quality so the genetic variation form the offspring was great. A couple of the breeds I did supplement my line with blood or genetics from another line of the same breed and variety, but I don't even do this if i don't have to. Why introduce unknown genetics into population when you don't have to. In most cases I am comfortable enough with my stock and the genetic opportunities that exist within my birds I just continue to work with what I have.

My original thought was soundly beat up and pounded into submission by the question I posed. I do believe there are cases when we have to bring in new blood (Minorcas on Andalusians was an example someone else used) or even go the route that Kathy has to just recreate the breed (Delawares) from the beginning. Maybe this is done because quality just can't be found in that breed at all or it is missing valuable characteristics. I tend to lean towards fixing the breeds by whatever means necessary rather than just let them drift away because they have become too difficult to obtain or work with because quality has diminished so dramatically.

So is out-crossing to other breeds encouraged by me? ABSOLUTELY NOT. But on the flip side, am I vehemently opposed to it in times when the breeder feels he has no where else to turn? Not at all. But, to each his own. I am just glad there are enough people passionate enough to post there thoughts and emotions all over this board. If they have as much dedication to preserving the breeds as is indicated by the posts here than then our Heritage breeds should all be in good shape from here on out.

Good luck everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to answer, I appreciate it.

 

[Pozees]

Champion waterfowl.... East indie, Res Goose- Egyptian,, Champ AOCCL-Dark Cornish hen. BV/RV red pyle moderns and some other waterfowl wins. We did well and were able to load and unload without it raining.....you know what a blessing that is. Most of the rivers here in Sonoma and Napa counties are at flood stage with another storm coming tomorrow. I'm OK where I am.

Congrats, sounds like a good trip!

Now, if we could just figure a way to build an irrigation ditch from there to Colorado ...

 

[BarnGoddess01]

There is a ton of combined knowledge here.


Walt

I know that's the reason I'm hanging around here ....

 

[NYREDS]

The Buttercup I posted earlier was Res Ch Med at the show I went to this past weekend, and the Ch Med was a Dark Brown Leghorn.

What? Were there no White Leghorns there? It's always a pleasant surprise when something unexpected shows up on Champion Row.

 

[Robert Blosl]

I may have hit the lottery. I awake this morning and had genetics on my mind. Something that has been mentioned on this thread got my brain juices going. Remember, people telling you I can't make a decision right now let me sleep on it. While I am stuck in my methods of breeding Heritage Fowl there must be others that are just as frustrated in other breeds of farm livestock that are not being breed to preservation. Then the name Kelly Klober popped up in my head who once wrote a article as a junior in the 1960s about having two strains of pigs or chickens breed by two different breeders and then ever five years they let's say their second best pig of the year to each other for fresh new blood. The strain of hogs where in their family since they where kids. The strain was their fathers strain and now each farmer is 50 years old and have been breeding their dads hogs on their farms for many years with no outside blood crossed in. The two brothers strain of hogs when shown are mentioned by many in the hog fancy or among the top hog judges the most closet to perfection of any hog ever breed in history. When shown they the two brothers are unstoppable. The secret was the brothers breed by the standard of perfection like their fathers did and taught them and they lived 450 miles away from each other and they felt the distance of 450 miles was enough because of different soil, climate, water, feed act to give them a shot of new blood each time they made a cross into their gene pool of hogs they raised. Now what is this method called? Genetic Diversity to the highest degree? Even Kelly could not give me a colleague boy tech book name when I asked him this. I typed into the search engine Kelly Klober genetic diversity and found many hits. One is this article by a hog farmer or fancier or a old nut job like me who is interested in preservation of old hog breeds. Look and read his article. I plan to get a hold of him and maybe with his connections to Cornell University I can finally figure out what this method or term is called when two breeders raise a closed gene pool of livestock like pigs or chickens and exchange a bird or sow every five years for new blood. We had a fellow on here named Mr. or Dr. Miller from Penn and he was the closest person to put a hat on my maddness that I written above.

Do any of you who are into genetics know what this is or could you take my description of the two brothers who swap every five years and send this message to some of your genetic experts and they can once and for all tell me what it is called?

I now just got a message or email from a couple who want to get back into show chickens after 45 years and have asked me some hair raising questions. I will work on that today how about questions and answers that I wrote about many years ago called the Laws of breeding Rhode Island Reds. I got to go back and see if I have these articles or dig into my brain and figure out what voodoo stuff I was writing about back then

Don't seem like to many people read my stuff or practiced it if they did we would have more master breeders around then we do now. The Red bantam breeders certainly did not listen to what I said. There has only been two or three in twenty years who as amounted to much. One was from New York. He is a judge a good one and use to breed Dominques at one time. Any idea who he is? Have a nice day and you genetic fans out there help me figure out this madness I have on my mind. No codes please I cannot figure them out.

http://stonybrookfarm.wordpress.com/category/heritage-breeds/

http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300088809

anyone know how I can contact this lady.? Notice the barred rock on the cover of her book
where do you think this bird came from???????

Not my kind of barred rock I would want to have if I was trying to keep the gene pool from
extiction.

 

[saladin]

This is actually a very common and traditional form of inbreeding.

It has been practised for centuries by various breeders of poultry; particularly by cockers. It has rarely been practised in bygone days by breeders of barndoor fowl. It was later adopted as a method of breeding by exhibition poultry folk who learned it from Game breeders.

 

[catdaddyfro]

This is actually a very common and traditional form of inbreeding.

It has been practised for centuries by various breeders of poultry; particularly by cockers. It has rarely been practised in bygone days by breeders of barndoor fowl. It was later adopted as a method of breeding by exhibition poultry folk who learned it from Game breeders.

Hey Doc glad you chimed in on this one.

I think Bob is looking for a term/name of this type of hybrid like vigor the diverse genetics bring back/invigorate by doing this strain/line crossing.(distant but still related) in away?

Like the old ads for the NHs that used to be advertised"spizinktrum" the old man said he NH males had LOL

Jeff

 

[saladin]

Scientific Inbreeding; that is inbreeding with a purpose and purposely done in a particular way.

I wouldn't look for the biologist or geneticist to 'name' what cockers were doing centuries before either of these two professions even existed.
Personally, I'd ask the cockers what to call it since they 'created' the method to begin with.

 

[Wynette]

Bob, it was with interest that I read your e-mail to me on this same topic not long ago, as this is how I was told by some folks who had been breeding Jersey Giants were doing things. I was told this is a way to keep your bloodline "pure" and that, when you bring in a new cock bird or cockerel every 5 years, you are actually strengthening your line, without adding "outside" blood. I think the trick is to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the person you're working with on the other end hasn't introduced any new genetics on his end.