Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Robert Blosl]

Bob, it was with interest that I read your e-mail to me on this same topic not long ago, as this is how I was told by some folks who had been breeding Jersey Giants were doing things. I was told this is a way to keep your bloodline "pure" and that, when you bring in a new cock bird or cockerel every 5 years, you are actually strengthening your line, without adding "outside" blood. I think the trick is to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that the person you're working with on the other end hasn't introduced any new genetics on his end.

You are dead right on keeping your lines pure. But what is is called. Heck the cockers I know arround here love to cross their birds to get good winners. No line breeding around here. I did have a friend who was a poor breeder and if I had his line of fighitng cock hens I could have done well. He had some black Hatch type hens. She would go out and pick her mate from the tie cords every day like a female snake decides which of the sperm she will keep for her eggs. She would hatch a whole bunch of black looking chicks and they where so mean and tough they would kill each other untill only one would be left. He would breed from this chicks and do well. Just think if he would have sperated some of the females and put them in four by four pens to raise up and use them as breeders. He could have had two or four good ones. Anyway he had got cut with a gaf and got infected and got into his blood stream and he got sick as can be. It screwed up his heart valve and had to have heart valve surgery. Then about a year or two latter he had a stroke and he was out of the fighting cock business. I learned alot about chickens and stuff from those guys.

Well anyway thanks for the comments. One day I will find a name and if I dont I will make one up. How about that. bob RIght now I call it Buddy Line Breeding. Two buddies in partnership with one good strain of Heritage Fowl. They have a book to look at and not a bible and they keep pusing in that direction of perfection. I have one such buddy with my Rhode Island Red Bantams.

 

[Chloe77]

Are these birds "heritage?" They are New Hampshire Reds.












This is my other girl, Ruby.



*Edited by Staff

 

[fowlman01]

Are these birds "heritage?" They are New Hampshire Reds.











This is my other girl, Ruby.

these are commercial or hatchery type NH's. this is one I showed a few weeks ago that looks pretty close to the show type.



Walt



*Edited by Staff

 

[Spangled]

Spangled

I don't think you or anyone else can "tick off" the bunch here...they are WAY TOO THICK SKINNED and have too many years of experience for that

My interpretation of Bob's intent (and this in MY opinion only) is that the thread was started to discuss the breeds and way(s) in which to preserve them as they were admitted into the APA standard, some of which date back to the 1800s

In my personal situation, I raise Columbian Plymouth Rocks in LF which Bob helped me to obtain approximately 3 yrs ago.. There were NONE to speak of in the US and I am simply working to re-establish a working flock. They are not show worthy yet, but I am trying to utilize the expertise of this combined group to get them to a point that they "could" be shown (per APA standards) if I wanted to.

I hope that makes sense and I hope others will provide their opinions as well

Oh, no. I don't think anyone is too thick skinned for me to tick off. I'm pretty good at it. Sad part is that I don't get how I'm doing it. It's pathetic, really.

Yes, your explanation is simple and to the point. And even I can understand it. So thanks. Although I will mull it over for a while. Plus, I need to keep it in mind as I read this thread. You wrote: "... preserve them as they were admitted into the APA standard...." I guess that would mean that whatever they were like before that, even if they were admitted to a European poultry association with standards previously ... well, we would ignore all of that. That sounds very (US) American. But that's me beginning to mull ... this isn't the place for mulling ... so I plan to mull and figure out the implications later.

I kinda like this one. Just think of the chicken's head pressed up to the glass inside the bottle, looking out . . .
Quote:
Thanks for the comic relief. That is funny. But seriously ... pickled? I've seen pickled eggs, but not a pickled chicken. Ew. It reminds me of that old story about the British couple that ate a whole canned chicken on their anniversary that they were given as a wedding gift. Here ... I found the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/4693520.stm It was 50 years old. The chicken in the can was 50 years old.

Read and study their history to learn what the original purpose was for the breed, then breed and select to ensure they are back or heading back to that original standard or purpose.... Basically, getting the breeds where they were meant to by their originators.

I think reading and studying their history is about the most fun thing about each breed. Sometimes their history go back so far beyond the year that they were accepted into the APA SOP (American Poultry Association Standard of Perfection for those reading along). For instance, the Campine. The Hamburg (and related) is another. Fascinating stuff.

So, this is my official thank you to the folks above and others that answered my question from this post: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/400344/heritage-large-fowl-thread/8040#post_10025755 If anyone else cares to add or detract and head tangentially off a bit with more answers, I'm all ears. Thanks again.

 

[Chloe77]

Yeah, I can see the difference. More feathers, better tail. Nice bird you have!

And I love her posture. Her eye looks a bit white tho.

 

[mschlumb]

I had some black/blue leghorn bantams from a breeder on the west coast. The leghorn has yellow legs and these blue birds that I got from him had yellow-ish legs with dark spots (like you mentioned about breeding out the pigment in dermal layers) I don't know how he did with them in shows but I've never seen (in my limited exposure to the world of show poultry) a blue bird with yellow legs that had lacing that was very impressive. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just wonder HOW if you're breeding the darkness out of them.

I too like to see something on Champion Row besides a white leghorn. They are quite striking but I've never seen a dark brown leghorn in person except a bantam at one show. Boy was he pretty!

I agree with you, I am sure getting clear yellow, or at least a dusky yellow which the standard does allow, will be difficult while maintaining good lacing. But im sure it can be done.

Its not that I have anything against white leghorns, I have always raised brown leghorns and dark browns were the last project I was working on before i moved to college. So naturally I like to see them win

 

[fowlman01]

• Spangled

Yes, your explanation is simple and to the point. And even I can understand it. So thanks. Although I will mull it over for a while. Plus, I need to keep it in mind as I read this thread. You wrote: "... preserve them as they were admitted into the APA standard...." I guess that would mean that whatever they were like before that, even if they were admitted to a European poultry association with standards previously ... well, we would ignore all of that. That sounds very (US) American. But that's me beginning to mull ... this isn't the place for mulling ... so I plan to mull and figure out the implications later.

If I am understanding correctly.........Several counties have poultry Standards. The APA does not always have the same Standards as the country of origin. I'm not sure why, but that is how it is. Each country seems to put their twist to the breed. As an example: Marans are a French breed. our APA Standard is almost the same as the French, but the Brits and Aussies have them with clean legs as opposed to the French and APA who call for feathered legs. The other countries take description liberties with our breeds as well. (The American breeds).

The main thing is to have a Standard that matches the intent/purpose of the original breed, but there will always be difference between the countries in their Standards. I can't see them ever united. The APA SOP describes much more detail in our descriptions of breeds/varieties and there is less "wiggle room" in our descriptions. In any event it is what is used here if you are interested in meeting a description. To match it exactly is only important if you want to show or just want a challenge that could produce a beautiful but viable chicken.

Walt

 

[Bentley]

I may have hit the lottery. I awake this morning and had genetics on my mind. Something that has been mentioned on this thread got my brain juices going. Remember, people telling you I can't make a decision right now let me sleep on it. While I am stuck in my methods of breeding Heritage Fowl there must be others that are just as frustrated in other breeds of farm livestock that are not being breed to preservation. Then the name Kelly Klober popped up in my head who once wrote a article as a junior in the 1960s about having two strains of pigs or chickens breed by two different breeders and then ever five years they let's say their second best pig of the year to each other for fresh new blood. The strain of hogs where in their family since they where kids. The strain was their fathers strain and now each farmer is 50 years old and have been breeding their dads hogs on their farms for many years with no outside blood crossed in. The two brothers strain of hogs when shown are mentioned by many in the hog fancy or among the top hog judges the most closet to perfection of any hog ever breed in history. When shown they the two brothers are unstoppable. The secret was the brothers breed by the standard of perfection like their fathers did and taught them and they lived 450 miles away from each other and they felt the distance of 450 miles was enough because of different soil, climate, water, feed act to give them a shot of new blood each time they made a cross into their gene pool of hogs they raised. Now what is this method called? Genetic Diversity to the highest degree? Even Kelly could not give me a colleague boy tech book name when I asked him this. I typed into the search engine Kelly Klober genetic diversity and found many hits. One is this article by a hog farmer or fancier or a old nut job like me who is interested in preservation of old hog breeds. Look and read his article. I plan to get a hold of him and maybe with his connections to Cornell University I can finally figure out what this method or term is called when two breeders raise a closed gene pool of livestock like pigs or chickens and exchange a bird or sow every five years for new blood. We had a fellow on here named Mr. or Dr. Miller from Penn and he was the closest person to put a hat on my maddness that I written above.

Do any of you who are into genetics know what this is or could you take my description of the two brothers who swap every five years and send this message to some of your genetic experts and they can once and for all tell me what it is called?

I now just got a message or email from a couple who want to get back into show chickens after 45 years and have asked me some hair raising questions. I will work on that today how about questions and answers that I wrote about many years ago called the Laws of breeding Rhode Island Reds. I got to go back and see if I have these articles or dig into my brain and figure out what voodoo stuff I was writing about back then

Don't seem like to many people read my stuff or practiced it if they did we would have more master breeders around then we do now. The Red bantam breeders certainly did not listen to what I said. There has only been two or three in twenty years who as amounted to much. One was from New York. He is a judge a good one and use to breed Dominques at one time. Any idea who he is? Have a nice day and you genetic fans out there help me figure out this madness I have on my mind. No codes please I cannot figure them out.

http://stonybrookfarm.wordpress.com/category/heritage-breeds/

http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300088809

anyone know how I can contact this lady.? Notice the barred rock on the cover of her book
where do you think this bird came from???????

Not my kind of barred rock I would want to have if I was trying to keep the gene pool from
extiction.

Essentially it is 'Line Crossing' That is, a population within a breed that has been split into two breeding lines in which inbreeding is performed for x number of generations. When the two lines are crossed back you take advantage of the homozygosity created within each line through inbreeding and the differences BETWEEN the two lines as they are bred separately. When these lines are selected in this manner the resultant offspring produced can obtain the best from each line. Again, communication of the selection practices between the breeders of the two lines is critical. This is a very common practice commercially

 

[Chloe77]

Well, when I breed, I'm going to have to inbreed a little... That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[fowlman01]

Yeah, I can see the difference. More feathers, better tail. Nice bird you have!

And I love her posture. Her eye looks a bit white tho.

Her eyes are correct, that is just some random light from the flash or something else. Online pics are usually not all that accurate. I thought my barred Rocks were gorgeous when I first started, but once I saw some of these ringlet type BR's with the precise markings, there was no way I was going back. They are much bigger birds too.

Walt