Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[capayvalleychick]

I am curious about how many have or would consider outcrossing to a different breed to improve the breed they're working on.

I'm a relative newbie poultry breeder, compared to most breeders on this thread. So, my opinion probably doesn't count for much. I don't think that it's right to cross breed the old, foundation breeds of poultry in order to improve them. To me, that's not preserving the breed.

I raise several breeds of purebred, heritage livestock, in addition to my chickens. These animals have pedigrees that trace back to the earliest recorded animals of their breed. I'm proud of that heritage and glad to preserve them. Crossbreeding or upgrading has never been allowed. All of these breeds are, or have been critically endangered at some point and had very small gene pools. The stewards of these animals were able to bring them back from near extinction, even when there was only related stock, even with less than perfect breeding animals. If they can do it, why can't poultry breeders?

So, I come to poultry breeding with that mindset. If a foundation breed has had other breeds crossed in, I no longer consider it purebred.
Bob talks about saving old strains that respected breeders have had, once they are no longer able. It seems like blasphemy to their memory, to consider crossing another breed into a long pure strain.

My view on crossbreeding more modern, composite breeds of poultry has been changed a bit. This is due to Kathy resurrecting the Delaware. But even with that breed, I still feel the need to seek out any old strains that might exist and keep them going, for their historical significance.

 

[fowlman01]

.....anyway....

I have a legitimate question.

I am curious about how many have or would consider outcrossing to a different breed to improve the breed they're working on. I've had a few folks tell me that I ought to consider using a Dark Brahma to cross on my Silver Penciled Rocks to improve size. I get where they're coming from, as the pattern is the same, and I've seen some VERY good penciling on many of them. However, wouldn't it take me 8-10 generations to remove all that I DO NOT want from that cross? I'm not convinced that this is the way to go, but it does make me curious about other folks who have crossed to a different breed. Is this "common" practice?

It we be my last resort, but since we have talked about where you are and where you need to be and I've handled your birds you sent out here, I would give it a shot. It would be great to add to the heads as well.

Walt

 

[OSUman]

How do you know that the respected breeder didn't cross other things in to improve the line, and that is in fact how he got the line to be his own?

So, I come to poultry breeding with that mindset. If a foundation breed has had other breeds crossed in, I no longer consider it purebred.
Bob talks about saving old strains that respected breeders have had, once they are no longer able. It seems like blasphemy to their memory, to consider crossing another breed into a long pure strain.

My view on crossbreeding more modern, composite breeds of poultry has been changed a bit. This is due to Kathy resurrecting the Delaware. But even with that breed, I still feel the need to seek out any old strains that might exist and keep them going, for their historical significance.

 

[capayvalleychick]

How do you know that the respected breeder didn't cross other things in to improve the line, and that is in fact how he got the line to be his own?

I guess you don't know for sure. I would think that a crossbred line would not breed true, that it would have more issues with unexpected things popping up.

It sounds like what you all are saying is that *what it looks like* is more important than what it truly is. That way of looking at it makes me crazy. I don't see the point of even having purebred poultry if they're not really pure-they just look the way they should.

I see thinking that way if winning shows is your objective- but it's not preservation!

 

[OSUman]

Kim, if an out cross is done properly it improves the overall quality of the bird, and any thing that would be considered a pop up would have been eliminated, and would breed true.

 

[cubalaya]

many of the heritage breeds of chicken are the result of crossbreeding that is why they are called composite breeds. if you cross a different breed in and then breed back to pure for 7 generations, they are pure again. as long as they look like the apa standard, they are just as pure as anything else and maybe more productive

 

[capayvalleychick]

Kim, if an out cross is done properly it improves the overall quality of the bird, and any thing that would be considered a pop up would have been eliminated, and would breed true.

Haven't the master breeders on here been saying all along that you don't even need to mix strains- within a breed?

But, it's ok to cross breed with a different breed altogether.

You are not going to convince me. If heritage livestock breeders can improve/preserve their breeds without cross breeding, then poultry preservationists should be able to do the same.

 

[capayvalleychick]

many of the heritage breeds of chicken are the result of crossbreeding that is why they are called composite breeds. if you cross a different breed in and then breed back to pure for 7 generations, they are pure again. as long as they look like the apa standard, they are just as pure as anything else and maybe more productive

I made the distinction in my initial post, that I was talking about foundation breeds.

I'm not going to argue about it. I've stated my opinion. Obviously I'm the only one that feels this way. Which means there are NO truly purebred or heritage chickens in existence. So why try to preserve them??? They are all mutts anyway.

 

[Maggiesdad]

Ahhhhh - chickens.... Gotta love 'em!

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

In doing some "historical reading" it is my understanding that EB Thompson and his line of "Ringlets" were created as a outcross of EB's barred line to a line of White Leghorns from Dr Dan Young. Inadvertently, the white leghorns carried the columbian gene and that is what allowed the Ringlet line to go from being (at best) "strong cuckoo" in barring pattern to the straightly barred line that EB Thompson was ultimately famous for

I don't think any bird can be called truly pure as they are all a result of some "crossing/hybridization" of the jungle fowl and others many, many centuries ago; some as recently as crosses made in the late 1800s/early 1900s