Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[aveca]

From the SOP :" Orpington ".."A general purpose fowl for heavy meat production and for eggs." The breed was developed to produce a good layer for a few years, and when culled to produce a large roasting bird . The English birds have more breast meat than the SOP birds , but are not as good layers as a rule . The trick is to keep the laying ability while producing a good, big , meaty Orp. The hatchery Orps that I have seen have little more meat on them than a Leghorn , and might be turned into chicken broth , but not Sunday dinner .

I have seen a few of those dressed..Lot of bone, not much else..I thought you would starve trying to feed a family on that...I know caponing isnt really an art that is practiced much in US but i wonder if that might help those..your right they would be a couple cups of broth.

 

[aveca]

J. Ralph Brazelton - master Orpington breeder, would trapnest his Orpingtons. Had a line of exhibition Orpingtons that laid 200+ eggs a year. Walt, Vickie and Bob can tell you more than I about Ralph. They knew him longer than I did. But his Orpingtons were huge and laid well. That Buff Orpington in Walt's avatar is a Brazelton Orp.

She should be considered not only a great show bird but highly valuable breeding hen if she is decent egg layer on top of the showing..people used to know the art of poultry keeping ..we are all re learning it today..or trying to..they used to pass it down generation to generation..since we buy eggs in a carton at the store now..we have to seek experienced people to teach us..the commercial world made it easy for us to not know anything..buy chicken under plastic wrap at grocery, and eggs in a carton..now we struggle to understand what we are doing.. My uncle was a buff orp man..wish I spent much more time sitting and talking with him about how he did things..the world made it convienient for me to not care about what he was doing ..I can get an egg mcmuffin why bother with all that ..Now I regret not spending time..he did try to interest cousins and I ..we are all kicking ourselves now, especially not seeing the value in the flock he spent 40 years building and tending..they were dispersed after his death..thats the biggest regret..they were freight trains and never a complaint about egg laying abilities..I do remember him talking about grand parent breeding program something about that was trick for eggs ..jeepersIf I would have paid better attention..when your a kid you say..that egg mcmuffin is calling..never mind all that..

 

[Bentley]

It's tough to get both size and egg production. There is a documented negative correlation between growth rate (rate of growth, final body weight, frame size) and reproduction. This includes egg production as well as fertility and hatchability. Not saying you can't work towards both, but it takes effort because size and reproduction work against each other. If you concentrate too much on size and less on reproduction then reproductive characteristics will diminish. We often see this less in fertilty and hatch because we cherish any egg laid and if the offspring meets the SOP we keep it as a breeder and often ignore its mothers rate of production.

Can you get both? Sure, but exhibition poultry enthusiasts want birds that meet the SOP much more than they want a bird that lays lots of eggs. So there goes the egg numbers with each successive generation.

 

[NYREDS]

Bob, your whites are too small, this is what a good white cockerel should look like at just under 6 months. as compared to a 7 month old Speckled Sussex. [You sure can't use a 5 gal bucket to weigh one in.]




I'm joking. I have raised commercial white broilers [like that cockerel] to eat and even used them to improve my blue egg laying flock's meat qualities. I'm not really a preservationist; I chose true Cornish as a self-sustaining meat flock after first looking for some to breed into my blue eggers. They came from show breeders, and I found them by searching at APA sanctioned shows. I breed them towards the current SOP of Cornish partly because they dress out to a beautiful looking and very well flavored table bird, partly because their appearance trips my trigger, and partly because I want to show them. [Their SOP has changed a great deal since first being recognized by the APA; they've even been moved from the Games class to the English class.] I'm not really a purist, but crossing them with another breed, or even a hatchery sourced Cornish, ruins their type, and then takes several generations to recover back to the point of the birds I started with, so it's counter productive. [I know this because I've made and kept some crosses for my blue eggers, and tested crossing hatchery Cornish hens to a good cockerel.] I would guess that out-crossing would be counter productive in most breeds....................... look how many generations have now gone into the making of lavender Orpingtons.

My only point in this is that there is nothing wrong with buying chicks from a hatchery, and may be the easiest and thus best way to go for many wanting to raise some for eggs or meat. However,I do believe that heritage breeds should be preserved, birds that really look like the breed is supposed to look can't be bought from a hatchery , and one breed or another well work for nearly anyone as a utility flock whether you choose to breed for a show winner or not.

Those things are amazing. I judge a lot of fairs in the summer & last year a kid showed one of those Cornish Rocks that he'd kept over from the year before. He had controlled it's feed access so it didn't have skeletal problems. The thing was in good feather so it looked great & it weighed just under 26 pounds. I could barely get it out of the cage.
This is why people don't caponize much any more-no need to. If you control the feeding to slow their growth a little it produces a much better tasting bird than the 6 week olds you buy in the store.
Agreed about the hatcheries. There are many equally valid reasons for keeping chickens & production is certainly one. If eggs were my primary reason for keeping chickens my current flock would be gone & would be replaced by some of the production hybrids.

 

[NYREDS]

I'm just curious..a lot of breeding stations around the world let's say breeding cattle..are working hard to increase muscle mass, Size ect as in meat production..would it be such a bad thing in some breeds the bigger boned and muscle birds looking at it from that perspective.?..the birds of the turn of the century were very different than today's through different breeding, feeding practice.I think they would be a little green with envy at a few of today's birds .as long as the birds are healthy rather robust..Just looking at it like it is meat , egg product.. Just trying to understand..

There is a part of me that thinks...outside of bantam..isn't that the point? Bigger, more meat per bird.

The turn of the century was only 12 years ago. I don't remember there being that much difference between chickens then & now.

 

[Texasmja]

Well looks like we got back on the road and we are going down the middle of the road for a change. Think of our dear fried in Chicken Heaven Ralph Bazelton on that on.


I was outside playing tilling up my HEIRLOOM GARDEN for this spring with all my great seeds I have had sent to me. The dirt looks week needs some mulch some manure. Well Hell nothing has been planted in it in 50 years I guess its fresh and tied. But in time it will be a factory of fresh Organic Vegetables that is my goal. I am a rookie at this. I have not raised a garden since I left home from Washington in the 1960s but I am willing to learn.

The definitions of what a Standard Breed Preservationist is wonder full. Just tell your self that's what I want to do and if you show your birds let the chips fall as they may. You will win 50% of the shows you go to if you breed to Standard. Some judges don't see it maybe as you do but don't give up.

I got a wild hair up my nose today and it says why not get some Barred Rock Large Fowl and some Silver Pencil led Large Fowl down here. Next year when I show them people will come up to me and say I want some of those pretty chickens. Then I will say see those red and green leg bands on these birds. This is your matting to take home. Now go out and share with others next years.

I will also have the Motled Javas will do the same with them and if I go to Newnan Georgia in February Next year I will take a couple of trios and share them with those folks.

If you won with a nice bird such as a White Rock ckl and you weighed them and they are 8 1/2 pounds and some one tells you they are to big they may mean big like in loose feathers or fluffy.

I looked at my two White Rock Ckls who are getting ready for the show in February and I know they will say they are to small Bob. But they weigh 8 1/2 pounds. They dont fill up the cage like a standard breed chicken is suppose to.

Well tough crap buster you dont breed by the standard . My birds are tight feathered like a game chicken and thats what I am going to breed. At least I dont have to pull their butt feathers out every year when hatching time comes around. They breed naturally. Its just a matter of opion that's all.

That is how I was taught by the old men with a 8th grade education in the 1960s and that is the way I will breed them.

You all have a nice night see you tomorrow. bob

 

[Texasmja]

Does anyone know a breeder for Black Wyandotte who sells eggs?

Duane Urch
http://standardbreedpoultry.com/breeder/Duane UrchUrch-Turnland Poultry/190

 

[ashandvine]

Or...

we could just have a great time enjoying and breeding our chickens!

Karen

LOL. I am inclin ed to agree with you. When language is used to define and summarily include and exclude I find it very important to look at the etymology and what the results of enacted language would be; ie the exclusion of those people who right now might be propagating or preserving. Clearly Preservation was given the golden halo in this instance, but propagators have value, especially to 'preserve' a genetic option. Standards, as they were set down and accepted, even here in the op's definition of heritage breeds, were only established in the last 50 years. Wouldn't it be a real hoot to find some sop for Dorkings written down in Latin?

Can you get both? Sure, but exhibition poultry enthusiasts want birds that meet the SOP much more than they want a bird that lays lots of eggs. So there goes the egg numbers with each successive generation.

Well, there goes any point chaser's ability to be a preservationist! lol Bentley, I love your posts.

 

[NYREDS]

This is what I have been trying to get across about weights. "If you don't know, don't DQ"

In general I'd agree with that but there are exceptions. Let me give one example that was so extreme it stuck in my rapidly failing memory.
A woman exhibited what she entered as a large fowl Bearded Buff Laced Polish Cockerel. It had no lacing & very little in the way of secondary sex characteristics. The bird was maybe 2 months old & was still in it's juvenile plumage. It didn't weigh more than 1 1/2 pounds if that. I didn't need a scale to disqualify that bird.
In the way of additional info the woman had BYC bumper stickers on her show box & had hung a sign on the cage informing me the of the bird's name [critical to the judging process. She came up to me later & was upset because the bird was disquallified because it was a "very sweet bird" & didn't deserve to be disqualified.
At the other end of the scale I remember a Golden Sebright cock bird that was about the size of a large fowl Hamburg hen [came from Ideal Hatchery I later learned]. Didn't feel the need for a scale in that case either. This owner asked me to talk about the class later & was very receptive to learning. Said when he saw how much smaller all the other birds in the class were he knew there was a problem. I introduced him to Herb Rogers & he ended up buying a pair of birds to take home.
These are the kind of extremes I was talking about. They happen once in awhile here & not just in Fair shows. In both cases I suppose I could have just placed the birds, neither were in large classes, but would that really have been a service to the exhibitors?

 

[fowlman01]

In general I'd agree with that but there are exceptions. Let me give one example that was so extreme it stuck in my rapidly failing memory.
A woman exhibited what she entered as a large fowl Bearded Buff Laced Polish Cockerel. It had no lacing & very little in the way of secondary sex characteristics. The bird was maybe 2 months old & was still in it's juvenile plumage. It didn't weigh more than 1 1/2 pounds if that. I didn't need a scale to disqualify that bird.
In the way of additional info the woman had BYC bumper stickers on her show box & had hung a sign on the cage informing me the of the bird's name [critical to the judging process. She came up to me later & was upset because the bird was disquallified because it was a "very sweet bird" & didn't deserve to be disqualified.
At the other end of the scale I remember a Golden Sebright cock bird that was about the size of a large fowl Hamburg hen [came from Ideal Hatchery I later learned]. Didn't feel the need for a scale in that case either. This owner asked me to talk about the class later & was very receptive to learning. Said when he saw how much smaller all the other birds in the class were he knew there was a problem. I introduced him to Herb Rogers 7 he ended up buying a pair of birds to take home.
These are the kind of extremes I was talking about. They happen once in awhile here & not just in Fair shows. In both cases I suppose I could have just placed the birds, neither were in large classes, but would that really have been a service to the exhibitors?

If you don't know, don't DQ does not apply to a bird that is obviously over/under weight, because in those cases judges do know. Being a sweet bird has nothing to do with being a show bird.....lol. You did her a nice favor by introducing her to someone who could help her improve her Sebrights. Placing birds with obvious DQ's does not help anyone.....but you know all this.

Walt