Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[BarnGoddess01]

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[BarnGoddess01]

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This strikes such a chord with me. I have encountered many of those folks that are incapable of seeing their "sweet" birds with a critical eye. I don't envy the position that puts you, as judges, in when they choose to exhibit those birds. However, I think you did the right thing by DQing the birds even if maybe it didn't feel particularly good on the day. You aren't doing any of us or poultry in general any favours by allowing the "junk" to slide by just because somebody thinks the bird is sweet or the class is small. I have a layer coop FULL of "sweet-hearts" but I don't take them out to the shows. I believe it behooves me to figure out which ones belong in my backyard and which ones might be worthy of the show ring (and the breeding pen) and your time. I am one of those folks that wants to hear the truth about my birds - and to learn from it.

Good thing many of you guys have that thick skin you do .... it can't be easy.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Personally speaking, after working in industry and showing birds, I find this cross simply amazing. The selective breeding that these birds went through is just astronomical. I believe I will be getting some meat birds next year just for meat for the freezer. Why? They are cheaper to raise and you can get twice the amount of meat that you would with a normal, heritage bird. Raising a heritage breed is one thing and there is nothing wrong with eating your culls, but when you need meat for your freezer and a fairly abundant supply of it (rather than raising hundreds of birds a year), a few Cornish X's are a sure fire way to do it!

And let the stone throwing commence!

Bob, your whites are too small, this is what a good white cockerel should look like at just under 6 months. as compared to a 7 month old Speckled Sussex. [You sure can't use a 5 gal bucket to weigh one in.]




I'm joking. I have raised commercial white broilers [like that cockerel] to eat and even used them to improve my blue egg laying flock's meat qualities. I'm not really a preservationist; I chose true Cornish as a self-sustaining meat flock after first looking for some to breed into my blue eggers. They came from show breeders, and I found them by searching at APA sanctioned shows. I breed them towards the current SOP of Cornish partly because they dress out to a beautiful looking and very well flavored table bird, partly because their appearance trips my trigger, and partly because I want to show them. [Their SOP has changed a great deal since first being recognized by the APA; they've even been moved from the Games class to the English class.] I'm not really a purist, but crossing them with another breed, or even a hatchery sourced Cornish, ruins their type, and then takes several generations to recover back to the point of the birds I started with, so it's counter productive. [I know this because I've made and kept some crosses for my blue eggers, and tested crossing hatchery Cornish hens to a good cockerel.] I would guess that out-crossing would be counter productive in most breeds....................... look how many generations have now gone into the making of lavender Orpingtons.

My only point in this is that there is nothing wrong with buying chicks from a hatchery, and may be the easiest and thus best way to go for many wanting to raise some for eggs or meat. However,I do believe that heritage breeds should be preserved, birds that really look like the breed is supposed to look can't be bought from a hatchery , and one breed or another well work for nearly anyone as a utility flock whether you choose to breed for a show winner or not.

 

[fowlman01]

This strikes such a chord with me. I have encountered many of those folks that are incapable of seeing their "sweet" birds with a critical eye. I don't envy the position that puts you, as judges, in when they choose to exhibit those birds. However, I think you did the right thing by DQing the birds even if maybe it didn't feel particularly good on the day. You aren't doing any of us or poultry in general any favours by allowing the "junk" to slide by just because somebody thinks the bird is sweet or the class is small. I have a layer coop FULL of "sweet-hearts" but I don't take them out to the shows. I believe it behooves me to figure out which ones belong in my backyard and which ones might be worthy of the show ring (and the breeding pen) and your time. I am one of those folks that wants to hear the truth about my birds - and to learn from it.

Good thing many of you guys have that thick skin you do .... it can't be easy.

I had an exhibitor that wanted to hit me. I had an interesting childhood in the big city and I know when someone is going to punch me...and he was. I don't think he could of because I'm still pretty nimble, but if another exhibitor hadn't pulled him away, I am pretty sure he would have gone for it. That's about the worst for me, but at real shows I don't have many people complain and when I do, it is usually not the winners........ so you have to take it with a grain of salt. I have had winners complain mildly that they would have done this or that, but they have handled these birds for hours and in some cases can't tell if they have a good one anyway. Most complaints are not to your face. I have three mistakes that I know that I have made over the years and let me tell you, you never let that happen again..I probably have others I don't know about, but I try to go back over the classes after judging, just to check myself. In my case, two of the mistakes were because someone distracted me, the other one....I don't know why I picked that bird. No excuses.

The kind I get the most is the mother who's kid did not win at a fair. They always know a lot more than me or they are going to file a protest, blah, blah, blah..........

Judges are human beings, we can have bad days. Most of the time we are overbooked on the amount of birds the show expects to be judged, so the time spent with each bird is less. 400-500 birds in a day is a lot of work...especially if it is large fowl.

If you really want to know what a judge has to do clerk.....maybe you have. You guys have some of the best judges up your way.

Walt

 

[BarnGoddess01]

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over a chicken!?!? Sheesh. It's not like we're talking buckets of prize money - or even thimbles! I'm truly shocked.

(I organized horse shows for many years so I am aware of the sense of entitlement some folks arrive with and the grief they are prepared to dish out if it doesn't go their way but I still shake my head. I also had to try to keep the judges happy ....

)

 

[Spangled]

Wouldn't it be a real hoot to find some sop for Dorkings written down in Latin?

I agree. A hoot.

Must be pretty enough to be on a coin:
www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/coins/sep_sev_066.html
The chicken could be any breed, but I think it's cool they put chickens on their coins.

Wait, I found a Latin SOP! (no, actually, I made it up)
In Dorking est sacrum avis imperii et fuerit reputandus et talis cum annis reipublicae. Ante Caesaris in Britanniam exportata est quod nos bene meritum. Gallus aves Aestimes proxime novem libra. Romani; nec patefacio sursum a session senatus neque satus a proelium nisi prius consulere Dorking.





Translation:
The Dorking is the sacred bird of the empire and has been regarded as such even since the years of the republic. Exported to Britain before the time of Julius Caesar, it has served we Romans well. Cock birds should weigh approximately nine libra. (libra=about 1/3 kg or so) Romans never open up a session of the Senate nor start a battle without first consulting a Dorking.

Yes, yes, I know that Dorking is a British word ... a market town south of London where fowl were sold or sent up from. I have no idea what the Romans called the breed.

edited to change lb to kg

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

Quote: You can learn a lot about poultry by clerking at a show. Have been blessed/cursed to clerk for some of the best judges!

 

[mschlumb]

I guess we could say the same about production Reds, i.e. that heritage birds aren't used for large scale egg production, so it's really pointless to breed for increased production.

But wasn't the SOP written for BOTH utility and appearance? The descriptions I read for some breeds justify some of the conformity on the basis of production needs. 

Not meaning to pick an argument, Mike, but there is a lot to be said for meat that isn't snow white, watery, and underage like what we get from production broilers. Some of us like flavorful chicken with a little bit of texture. 

rick

Hey I agree, you are right the standard was written for utility and appearance.
I just don't want to see all of our breeds bred for nothing but meat or eggs.
you have to find a happy medium of standard type and high production. But some people could still care less about high production and more about show quality. It's just the breeders preference.
As Bentley said there is a correlation between growth rate and egg production and we shouldn't lose sight of standard requirements and lose traditional characteristics. There needs to be a proper balance in dual purpose birds at least between egg and meat production.
I'm with you, I have had "heritage" birds before and they are amazing.

 

[mschlumb]

Would that be such a bad thing? 

Yes, because not all breeds are meant to be heavy meat birds. As Bentley said there is a correlation between egg and meat production. Breeds that are traditionally dual purpose need to kept that way. There is a reason we try to preserve these birds and there traits. They each fill a certain role and by preserving them, we always have those traits around.
If meat is your goal then raise some Jersey Giants, Cornish, or Brahmas. And there is nothing wrong with that. But don't change every breed to be great big.
No matter what, a heritage bird is not as an efficient meat bird as broilers are, so to me it doesn't make sense to breed them for nothing but meat. Since there is not as big of a market for "heritage" meat. As much as you and I might like to eat "heritage" birds...lets be realistic it's expensive to produce and people often times simply can't afford to eat it on a regular basis.

Bottom line, we have a great diversity of breeds to choose from, each with their own special attributes. Why should we breed that diversity away?

 

[ashandvine]

Personally speaking, after working in industry and showing birds, I find this cross simply amazing. The selective breeding that these birds went through is just astronomical. I believe I will be getting some meat birds next year just for meat for the freezer. Why? They are cheaper to raise and you can get twice the amount of meat that you would with a normal, heritage bird. Raising a heritage breed is one thing and there is nothing wrong with eating your culls, but when you need meat for your freezer and a fairly abundant supply of it (rather than raising hundreds of birds a year), a few Cornish X's are a sure fire way to do it!

Let me redirect a few stones away from you by saying if you are serious about meat then ducks and rabbits, not chickens, are the way to go, and heritage rabbits and ducks eat less and grow fast; as well they are hardy.

Mr Walt, are there any kinds of shows for chickens or fowl that are not about judging to a standard? I am thinking of that weird 'ugliest dog' contest or agility and obedience contests that any person's dog may enter. I wonder if that isn't part of the reason people take their sweet Henny Penny to the shows and then get personally offended, as if you were insulting their daughters or son. Maybe if there were some other show for them to take snookums to they would be less inclined to violence. For your sake, I hope so.