Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Maven]

My goodness, I had to take some time away from the computer around the holidays and I didn't think I would EVER get caught back up!! But I've finally finished reading the last month's worth of posts.

Bob, I just can't thank you enough for this thread. I have learned soooooo much here, and I feel much more confident that when I am ready to step up to (H) poultry within the next year, I will have a much better understanding of what I am looking for, and a much more discerning eye when it comes to choosing the foundation for my forever flock.

I come down to the coast to see my dad often - he lived in Mobile for years but now lives in Pass Christian, MS. But when I come I take him over to see my Uncle Bob in Mobile and my Uncle Lamar in Pensacola. (My dad's 83 now). One of these times when I come that way, I'd love to take a day trip to meet you and see your birds if you are not opposed to visitors on occasion. It would be such an honor to shake the hand of the man I have been learned so much from just by sitting hear quietly night after night and reading the wealth of wisdom you and so many others offer...

Next time I plan a trip that way, I'll give you a holler if you don't mind.

PS - Karen - my brain would be scrambled eggs if I tried to retain HALF the stuff you know where genetics are concerned. You really are a treasure.

Thanks to ALL of you who have spent so much time sharing your wisdom and chicken sense on this thread. You will never truly know how much it is appreciated.

Maven

 

[Robert Blosl]

My goodness, I had to take some time away from the computer around the holidays and I didn't think I would EVER get caught back up!! But I've finally finished reading the last month's worth of posts.

Bob, I just can't thank you enough for this thread. I have learned soooooo much here, and I feel much more confident that when I am ready to step up to (H) poultry within the next year, I will have a much better understanding of what I am looking for, and a much more discerning eye when it comes to choosing the foundation for my forever flock.

I come down to the coast to see my dad often - he lived in Mobile for years but now lives in Pass Christian, MS. But when I come I take him over to see my Uncle Bob in Mobile and my Uncle Lamar in Pensacola. (My dad's 83 now). One of these times when I come that way, I'd love to take a day trip to meet you and see your birds if you are not opposed to visitors on occasion. It would be such an honor to shake the hand of the man I have been learned so much from just by sitting hear quietly night after night and reading the wealth of wisdom you and so many others offer...

Next time I plan a trip that way, I'll give you a holler if you don't mind.

PS - Karen - my brain would be scrambled eggs if I tried to retain HALF the stuff you know where genetics are concerned. You really are a treasure.

Thanks to ALL of you who have spent so much time sharing your wisdom and chicken sense on this thread. You will never truly know how much it is appreciated.

Maven

Glad you like the thread it has been very educational for so many and know the students who have converted from Feed Store Chickens to the H type of Chickens are helping the beginners. Kind of reminds me of the residents in the operating room the fist year folks are new to what they got to learn to do. Then as time goes buy the older residents who been doing surgery for two or three years help and teach the new guys how to operate and do it right. Then one day they graduate and leave and go on there own. Some I worked with have been on there own for 15 years. Its the same in raising chickens we are always learning and always searching for new ways to improve what we are doing and how to learn to breed these rare breeds better. I had a nice long talk with a future breeder of my old line of Rhode Island Reds yesterday. I learned a few things from him yesterday on nutrition.

One question I don't remember the ans er to this question as I read it one time in a old poultry husbandry books.

The question is if you had 100 white rock or R I Red day old chicks how much would it cost to raise one chick to laying age?

How many pounds of chick starter, finisher then grower would it take per hundred females or one female?

This is important as when you keep to many birds and dont get rid of them a time comes along where you are going over your budget on what your family can afford to spend on chicken feed. Remember it cost the same to feed a feed store chickens as a Standard Breed one and in large fowl its a lot.

I did a test about 18 years ago on how much my adult large fowl males ate. I put a pint of feed in one quart feeder in their 4x4 coop at 6 pm every night. Then I weighed the left over feed and recorded it. After subtracting the total feed given by what was left over for ten males the males averaged 13 oz of feed per day and the females about 10 oz on another study. I had 15 male on the place after I saw how much they where eating I got rid all but six.

I cant find my calculator but if feed is $36. per hundred pounds and they eat 13 oz a day what is that per day per month per year?? Back then I think I figured it was about $20. per year to keep a male and I got rid of the extra males in a hurry. I think it made me a better Poutlryman as I tried to breed my birds up with better quality birds and today I am doing the same thing.

Some one asked a few days ago if they where getting a new start how many would they get. If I got ten started chicks from someone with a good line I should be able to get two good males and two maybe three good females. That's all you need to get started. Breed the top two or three females to male nuber one for five weeks take him out of the pen for about ten days then put in male number two in with the females hatch all those chicks and toe punch the chick pen two and the first chicks pen one.

You may get forty to sixty chicks and then you are off to the races. If you got a strain from a good breeder just have two family lines and line breed them for the next two to four years as two family's. After that you can get some more chicks or eggs from them or one of their customers who is seriously breeding this strain.

Keep it small in volume in numbers, breed for vigor first, then breed type, egg product on then color. I really think you need to just put blinders on for color for your first two years. Spend you mental energy on getting the type stabilized. You still look at the color of the tail and wings but dont breed for that right now for your first two or three years.

Case example. I have two Mottled Three year old cock birds, two three year old Mottled Hens. I am going to do this with this rare old line. I dont know a darn thing about Javas or the Mottle Color. Heck I never saw a Mottle chicken in person in my life. However, I am willing to learn the breed and the color pattern. I have a lady from Texas who is my first partner. She is going to meet up with me one day in a year or so in Louisiana and I am going to share with her most likely two males and two or three pullets from my first batch of chicks this year. Then the next year I should have three males and six females. I can can share maybe 50 started chicks ten with five new lovers of Javas. They will do the same as I did in my first year. Then they will do the same and I will keep passing on this old line for about five years. By this time I should have ten beginners with this old blood line from Dr. McGraw establish. I will then bail out and get rid of all my Mottled Javas.

I accomplished my goal and that is getting this old line in the hands of Java Preservationist.

This is a example for any breed that you would like to start. Find you a buddy who has the same strain. Do not cross lines from another person unless you must for the sake of improving type. Remember if you cross a great line from Texas that's 40 years old with a line from Rhode Island that is 25 years old you are mixing up the genes and the traits that these two master breeders skimmed off the poor traits for all these years. You may think you will hit the lottery and get a champion but if you do odds are this bird does not have the power to reproduce his or her traits to their off spring.

That's the thought of the day from two conversations I had in the last week. Have a nice day, promote these H chickens and most of all if you have some good H birds share them with others.

 

[Zanna]

"Some one asked a few days ago if they where getting a new start how many would they get. If I got ten started chicks from someone with a good line I should be able to get two good males and two maybe three good females. That's all you need to get started. Breed the top two or three females to male nuber one for five weeks take him out of the pen for about ten days then put in male number two in with the females hatch all those chicks and toe punch the chick pen two and the first chicks pen one."

You would only wait 10 days between roosters and be confident the eggs were fertilized by the #2 roo?

 

[flowerchild59]

Robert, love your replies and your common sense way of doing things. Thanks for the advice, as always.

 

[colburg]

Some one asked a few days ago if they where getting a new start how many would they get. If I got ten started chicks from someone with a good line I should be able to get two good males and two maybe three good females. That's all you need to get started. Breed the top two or three females to male nuber one for five weeks take him out of the pen for about ten days then put in male number two in with the females hatch all those chicks and toe punch the chick pen two and the first chicks pen one.

You may get forty to sixty chicks and then you are off to the races. If you got a strain from a good breeder just have two family lines and line breed them for the next two to four years as two family's. After that you can get some more chicks or eggs from them or one of their customers who is seriously breeding this strain.

Keep it small in volume in numbers, breed for vigor first, then breed type, egg product on then color. I really think you need to just put blinders on for color for your first two years. Spend you mental energy on getting the type stabilized. You still look at the color of the tail and wings but dont breed for that right now for your first two or three years.

It's taken a loooong time to read this thread, and I didn't take notes like I should have so my apologies if these questions have been answered before. I have tons of questions so I'll try to structure them in an order that makes sense. Maybe we could do a CSU of the maintaining/improving H chickens: Setups, breeding, culling, raising, selecting, etc. If this doesn't fit in with your ideas for the thread let me know.

In the example above, do you not care about which hen each chick comes from? Would it be better to pen each hen seperate and rotate male #1 through each pen for a day or two. Then after 5 weeks rotate male #2 through? I know it's more work and more to keep track of, more breeding pens, etc. But, what's the right way to do it? Is the extra work worth it? Isn't it required in order to track any lineage? Is there any point in looking back 2 or 3 generations?

How about some general questions. What is a proper setup for breeding 1 breed of H chicken? # of breeding pens? Size of pens? Is it better to alternate males through the hens, or set up for simultaneous breeding(requiring more pens)?

OK, I'll stop with the questions for a bit. MaybeI've answered some of my Q's as I re-read them, but I'll leave them in case I'm wrong. I'm a total newbie in the world of H, so if I'm going to start from scratch, why not start 'er off right.

Looking forward to multiple answers and thanks to all for the previous 10,000+ posts.

 

[3riverschick]

It's taken a loooong time to read this thread, and I didn't take notes like I should have so my apologies if these questions have been answered before. I have tons of questions

What is a proper setup for breeding 1 breed of H chicken?
============================================================
It depends on the quality of the birds with which you start.
1. show quality
2. 1/2 foundation show quality 1/2 less than show quality.
3. Total foundation flock less than show quality.
4. Whether any of the above combinations come from a single stain ...or... 2 or more strains.
5. Degree of knowledge of genetic history of one's foundation flock.
---------
Best case scenario: Show quality fowl from a single strain.
Related, but distant enough so you can breed the males to the females.
Supported by historic lit and op[nions of top breeders.
---------
Once one knows these things and makes a list for their particular situation, one can
choose the proper breeding system (or systems) which meet the needs of the flock
and the goals of the breeder.
Another important part of all this is a study of the history, origins, strains & genetics of the breed.
This helps the breeder to understand the both tangible and intangible nuances
which make the breed uniquely itself. This knowledge allows the breeder to understand proper
breed type which is a critical talent in selective culling of the flock.
Best Success,
Karen

 

[Pozees]

In the example above, do you not care about which hen each chick comes from? Would it be better to pen each hen seperate and rotate male #1 through each pen for a day or two. Then after 5 weeks rotate male #2 through? I know it's more work and more to keep track of, more breeding pens, etc. But, what's the right way to do it? Is the extra work worth it? Isn't it required in order to track any lineage? Is there any point in looking back 2 or 3 generations?

I love this question, as it is one that has frequently popped into my head. When breeding dogs the pedigree and characteristics of the dam are every bit as important as those of the sire, and I cannot imagine it differs in chickens, but I might certainly be wrong. I would think the genetics of the rooster combine differently with those of each hen.

 

[3riverschick]

I love this question, as it is one that has frequently popped into my head. When breeding dogs the pedigree and characteristics of the dam are every bit as important as those of the sire, and I cannot imagine it differs in chickens, but I might certainly be wrong. I would think the genetics of the rooster combine differently with those of each hen.

---------------------
Hi Pozees,
I was just reading up on this, this afternoon. Quoting fro the 1920's edition of Leo Outram's classic book,
"The Sussex Fowl...", Chapter 9 "Mating" Page 46,"Type mated to type will produce type, but perfection of colour on both the male and female side does not always produce perfection in this respect. It all depends if the colour is from an old well-established fountain or not.
A strain of many years' unbroken ancestry is one of the keynotes to a breeder's success.
In procuring your birds, select your females first, Five to eight is a reasonable number for a breeding pen. The first point to study is fitness followed by typical characteristics of the breed. It is all important that your females be of first-class quality. The man who values the female side of his stock invariably secures success."
Page 47, "It is a well-known fact that though you may study the rules of colour mating, yet you are dependent so much on whether the male and the females mated to him will nick, therefore I do advise the purchase of the original breeding stock from one strain. When this is not done the breeder has many chances of not obtaining a correct mating, whereas, if he had bought his stock from one farm, he would only have in all probability eight. A happy chance may have it that he would in the other case too, but the chance is about as remote as a 1000 to 1 Derby horse carrying off the Blue Riband of the turf."
Page 52, " To wind up, I would encourage the novice by giving the following advice. if you are totally inexperienced in breeding problems, go to a reliable breeder, tell him your requirements, and " read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest" all the advice he may give you. Further, study closely the whole of the mating history of the strain you have purchased.
Do not attempt to keep everything in your head, vital points are often forgotten by those who trust to memory. A little book in which information, as it is gained, is jotted down will be found to be of great assistance as time goes on. Never be afraid to ask the advice of any fancier, there are always plenty who are willing to help their fellows. The freemasonry of the fancy is one of its most pleasing features."
Chapter 12, "Special to the Beginner", Page 63, " Poultry farming is a paying game, but for a start it must be played slow; small results make for big results. One must be content to start with a small gain; those who strive for too big results often end up in a dead loss. Start in a small way and build up your business, learn to walk before you run." end quotes.
Outram is only one source about the importance of the dam. I really enjoyed this educational article by Bob Blosi from his website:
The Secrets in the Dam
By Robert Blosl
http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id50.html

Best Success,
Karen

 

[Robert Blosl]

Quote:

Some one asked a few days ago if they where getting a new start how many would they get. If I got ten started chicks from someone with a good line I should be able to get two good males and two maybe three good females. That's all you need to get started. Breed the top two or three females to male number one for five weeks take him out of the pen for about ten days then put in male number two in with the females hatch all those chicks and toe punch the chick pen two and the first chicks pen one.

You may get forty to sixty chicks and then you are off to the races. If you got a strain from a good breeder just have two family lines and line breed them for the next two to four years as two family's. After that you can get some more chicks or eggs from them or one of their customers who is seriously breeding this strain.

Keep it small in volume in numbers, breed for vigor first, then breed type, egg product on then color. I really think you need to just put blinders on for color for your first two years. Spend you mental energy on getting the type stabilized. You still look at the color of the tail and wings but dont breed for that right now for your first two or three years.

It's taken a looking time to read this thread, and I didn't take notes like I should have so my apologies if these questions have been answered before. I have tons of questions so I'll try to structure them in an order that makes sense. Maybe we could do a CSU of the maintaining/improving H chickens: Setups, breeding, culling, raising, selecting, etc. If this doesn't fit in with your ideas for the thread let me know.

In the example above, do you not care about which hen each chick comes from? Would it be better to pen each hen separate and rotate male #1 through each pen for a day or two. Then after 5 weeks rotate male #2 through? I know it's more work and more to keep track of, more breeding pens, etc. But, what's the right way to do it? Is the extra work worth it? Isn't it required in order to track any lineage? Is there any point in looking back 2 or 3 generations?

How about some general questions. What is a proper setup for breeding 1 breed of H chicken? # of breeding pens? Size of pens? Is it better to alternate males through the hens, or set up for simultaneous breeding(requiring more pens)?

OK, I'll stop with the questions for a bit. Maybe I've answered some of my Q's as I re-read them, but I'll leave them in case I'm wrong. I'm a total newbie in the world of H, so if I'm going to start from scratch, why not start 'er off right.

Looking forward to multiple answers and thanks to all for the previous 10,000+ posts.

First you got to keep things simple. Many getting into this hobby of raising the H chicken have been raising barn yard feed store chickens. They are not into toe punching yet or even know what family lines are or line breeding. So you got to think about this on their level then you have some who are all fired up and ready to go like I was 20 years ago.

Here is the set up I did today. I have one white leghorn hen and she is a laying machine. I got a cockerel in the pen with her which is her nephew. I will leave him in the pen for about three weeks and pull out the male and leave her by herself for say ten days. I have always been told that the female should have clear eggs about a week after he leaves so I add a few extra days to be on the save side. Then I will put in a cockerel that is her son for the same time then put in when it warms up good in the late or last part of the breeding season a three year old cock bird that I have had on hold for two years. I hope to hatch about ten chicks maybe more from each male. They will be toe punched for each male as pen one, two and three. Then I raise these chicks up and keep only the pullets. I keep two of the very best ones from each male and then mate both or only one back to their sire next year. I will repeat this for three total years. Then on the Fourth year I will start my rotational line breeding program. I have a trio in Washington State so he will raise two family's and if I get in trouble in three or four years I can get a male or female from him and get me out of trouble.

In my White Rocks I have three females and I am only keeping in February two females eggs a four year old hen and her daughter. I got her mated to the sister of the old hens cockerel. Its a nephew aunt type mating. I then will put in a cock bird in March that is three years old and he will be with them for three weeks. Then I have a male that was grand champion of a show about four years ago from my mentor in this line and hope to God he has a little left he is four years old. I will toe punch each chick to the mating. I will also rotate each male from one 4x4 foot pen every day and rest the male on the last day. He will go in a spare pen still under the total 15 hours of lights then rotate him back over from one pen to the other.

The Reds are the same way. Have three males one male is from New York and he is going to be going in with his daughter. They will be toe punched pen one. I got her brother and he is going back in a pen with his mother. That will be pen two. Then I have two females that are three year old hens and they are going in with a two year old cock bird. That's pen Three.

I have one male that is four or five years old who kept his youth full look and is brick shaped as can be. I am mating him to one pullet from this year and one two year old hen. They each Will be in a separate pen and they will be four and five. All eggs are put into a small wooden Red Wood incubator or hatch er. There is a divider in there so each chick will not get mixed up with the other. I have three of these units for all my chicks. It is so important ant that you put the pen number on the small end of the egg so when the egg hatches you can tell which pen the chick came from. I take a small two x two inch card and have a number on it on the side the eggs are on to make sure. I toe punch each chick one by one as they come out of every compartment. I then wing band each chick about seven days of age to watch their growth and behavior.

It is complicated but I want to know which male or which female produces the best off spring. If I get a female and a male that produces a champion of its class or better. I may then repeat that mating again and then again till they die. There are so many combinations you can do but you dont have to have a army of birds.

When I got started I thought I would have four breeding pens and four females in each pen and that was stupid. I just need the very best female and then make more just like her year in and year out. Then in no time in five years your females look like peas in a pod.

Hope this helps you. If you got space and time do it. But the secret is to keep it simple at first. KISS

Want to read something good. New Beginner Old Beginner by Wid Card.

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924003158312#page/n51/mode/2up

 

[colburg]

Hope this helps you. If you got space and time do it. But the secret is to keep it simple at first. KISS

Robert, don't take this the wrong way, but I love that you start and end with a KISS. Reading all that starts to make it all feel a little overwhelming. but a KIS reminder makes it feel a little better.

How about culling? Let's start with pullets. In my mind, I have 2 options. With proper ID, wing bands, leg bands, toe punch, whatever, I can put them with the egg layers until breeding season. Then go through and pick my best types and put them in breeding pens. Or, they can stay seperated from the general population, then at certain ages, when I cull out non-breeders, throw them in with the layers and keep breeding stock seperate. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Comments?

Roosters: These either become breeders or supper. I just don't want to make them supper too early. But, from Bob's feeding $'s posted earlier, I don't want to keep them too long either. This probably depends a lot on breed, which I know requires more research on my part, but are there any reliable tips anyone can give in this area? To me, culling at 20-24 weeks is optimal. But, I've never had a breeding program so I don't know.