Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

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Ok, I understand your comments about linebreeding, an attempt to clone a great bird. It is your last statement about complimentary matings that I want to be sure I understand. I know that a complimentary mating means that the birds have the same strengthens, to lock those in, and make sure that the never have the same faults. I am understanding that correctly, Right?

The birds I have are very good, but certainly not perfect enough to clone. I would end up with a flock of good birds, but not great birds. So how does a beginner bring the two things together? Do I start out with the simple line breeding plan, while making complimentary selections for the matings? OR Make "complimentary matings" until I find something worth cloning, and then start line breeding? If it is the last one, then How do you do the complimentary matings until then?
This is just my opinion: In the case of chickens, the fighting game fowl and in dogs, the real Pit Bulls and various other working breeds (not just a breed that worked at one time, but is out there working today or within the last couple of generations); health, vigor and lack of faults is ‘almost’ a given in my opinion as you are picking up on a successful breeding program that is the result of hundreds or even thousands of years of progress. However, you still want the best you can get before starting a line breeding program to ‘fix’ or ‘lock in’ what you’ve got. The breeders who have the best are the ones who should be doing this and those breeders are who you want to get your seed stock from. Now I’m not saying you have to have the top strain in your country (although that would be nice) to start a line breeding program, but you want to be up there with the best. Keep in mind I’m talking about strains and breeds, a large and diverse gene pool is common sense when you’re talking about a species.

I remember being shocked to learn all the issues, even health issues, that plaque so many of the top lines of breeds, of different species, that have long been bred for ‘show’ not ‘go’. How did this happen? Someone posted a few posts back that their chickens were the result of a line breeding program that had good attributes, but also faults bred into them. In my opinion it would have been better for the originator of the line to purchase better stock to begin with and/or practice complementary breeding, as Yellow House Farm explained so well, before attempting to ‘clone’ or ‘lock in’ those traits.

Today we have many breeds of animals that are not bred to do any kind of work (only need to look like they can do work) and things like fitness are not tested. In working breeds if you’re healthy and work well you get bred and pass on those genes and if you aren’t healthy or don’t work well you don’t. These ‘other’ breeds rely on the breeders to make those decisions for them and that’s where the trouble starts.

So when you purchase stock, learn what the faults are. Hopefully they are minor. If they have major faults that will take many years to correct or a dead end, do not use them for breeding. Learn what the strengths are. There is no perfect bird, but seek out the best you can get. As a breeder, replacing Mother Nature’s survival of the fittest and avoiding faults is a huge task. If you were to go out today and purchase a trio of good game fowl, assuming nobody has screwed them up, there’s a good chance you can start a line breeding program immediately after testing the hens to see who consistently threw the best cocks, hopefully as good as or even better than the Cock bird . If you see faults in your breed stock it may be a good idea to practice complementary breeding, put a lot of birds on the ground, cull all but the best and when you feel it’s as good as it’s going to get you are ready to lock in those traits.

This is my understanding based on what I know, but I am not a master breeder. Hope this helps.
 
And they don't look brown.

w.

Yes they don't in natural lighting. I've found out that Red folks want to take pics inside the barn and NH folk should bring those out in the sunlight. It just works better that way, LOL

Lual
They look good esp in this stage of development that's usually a good thing most breeds at this stage aren't quite so easy on the eyes but still yet I'm such a biased NH person or as you(Walt) have referred oft times to as being as "snob" LOL


Jeff
 
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This is just my opinion: In the case of chickens, the fighting game fowl and in dogs, the real Pit Bulls and various other working breeds (not just a breed that worked at one time, but is out there working today or within the last couple of generations); health, vigor and lack of faults is ‘almost’ a given in my opinion as you are picking up on a successful breeding program that is the result of hundreds or even thousands of years of progress. However, you still want the best you can get before starting a line breeding program to ‘fix’ or ‘lock in’ what you’ve got. The breeders who have the best are the ones who should be doing this and those breeders are who you want to get your seed stock from. Now I’m not saying you have to have the top strain in your country (although that would be nice) to start a line breeding program, but you want to be up there with the best. Keep in mind I’m talking about strains and breeds, a large and diverse gene pool is common sense when you’re talking about a species.

I remember being shocked to learn all the issues, even health issues, that plaque so many of the top lines of breeds, of different species, that have long been bred for ‘show’ not ‘go’. How did this happen? Someone posted a few posts back that their chickens were the result of a line breeding program that had good attributes, but also faults bred into them. In my opinion it would have been better for the originator of the line to purchase better stock to begin with and/or practice complementary breeding, as Yellow House Farm explained so well, before attempting to ‘clone’ or ‘lock in’ those traits.

Today we have many breeds of animals that are not bred to do any kind of work (only need to look like they can do work) and things like fitness are not tested. In working breeds if you’re healthy and work well you get bred and pass on those genes and if you aren’t healthy or don’t work well you don’t. These ‘other’ breeds rely on the breeders to make those decisions for them and that’s where the trouble starts.

So when you purchase stock, learn what the faults are. Hopefully they are minor. If they have major faults that will take many years to correct or a dead end, do not use them for breeding. Learn what the strengths are. There is no perfect bird, but seek out the best you can get. As a breeder, replacing Mother Nature’s survival of the fittest and avoiding faults is a huge task. If you were to go out today and purchase a trio of good game fowl, assuming nobody has screwed them up, there’s a good chance you can start a line breeding program immediately after testing the hens to see who consistently threw the best cocks, hopefully as good as or even better than the Cock bird . If you see faults in your breed stock it may be a good idea to practice complementary breeding, put a lot of birds on the ground, cull all but the best and when you feel it’s as good as it’s going to get you are ready to lock in those traits.

This is my understanding based on what I know, but I am not a master breeder. Hope this helps.
Underscored section is my reference here:

Or for a good example of vice versa (bassackwards breeding) not setting in type, just production(work) would be to just look at most hatchery stocks they are bred for work(spitting out eggs, big ones too) and not much emphasis placed on much else other than to sorta resemble their "so called" breed/variety name. Which they do an excellent job of(colors and pattern wise) so kudos to the smarties that can genetically imprint such, its a win win money making ordeal for sure. Hatcheries are thriving and getting a pretty penny for their offerings for sure.

My point here I guess where I'm going with it is, you set in(imprint) most anything in breeding so you got watch out for/or know what you are looking and going for when doing so.

Jeff
Disclaimer below:LOL
Once again I will say I'm not bashing hatchery stocks as I have some(quite a few) here they are for a purpose and they do a good job of it too. Lay on reds and sex-links LOL
 
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Just got wind that WX poultry tore it up at the Nebraska State fair this weekend. They took some of those half and half NH "mutt" pullets Jeremy concocted/conjured up. They had two of those NH pullets up there shaking their tail feathers for the judges and got 4 good ribbons. Best American class Best LF. A Dorking girl placed Best English, A little RIR male took Best SCCL, Best Bantam, + was the overall Champion.

In the Junior show his son Devyn had Best American and Res. LF that went to the other NH pullet, Best SCCL,Best Bantam + the overall Jr. Champion with a Silver penciled Rock pullet.

Way to represent "H" type fowl XW poultry sounds like it was a blast.
thumbsup.gif



I knew I been looking at goodness growing up here(at home). I am fortunate to have some of that winning NH stock right here to work with, thanks to J-whip and his masterful breeding abilities. KUDOS to you and your family

Jeff
 
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Need Help finding a line of Good Silver Laced Wyandotte's

A person is looking for some is there many strains that you know of that we may be able to direct a person to?

Please let me know Thanks Bob
Bob
Rick Hare,Guardhouse,Jerry Foley and Matt Ulrich all have good Silver laced.Too bad Herb Holtz is not still around to get some from.
 
Yes they don't in natural lighting. I've found out that Red folks want to take pics inside the barn and NH folk should bring those out in the sunlight. It just works better that way, LOL

Lual
They look good esp in this stage of development that's usually a good thing most breeds at this stage aren't quite so easy on the eyes but still yet I'm such a biased NH person or as you(Walt) have referred oft times to as being as "snob" LOL


Jeff

They better not look brown in artificial light either. There are several judges that have the perception that these German NH's are brown....and some are. Some of the ones I had were brown, but they don't live here anymore. The brown birds look brown in the sun too. I don't hear anyone talking about that. Type is the most important ,but if a whole bird is the wrong color it doesn't make much difference in a show, you won't do well.

To people who think dogs and other livestock that are shown are like chickens....if folks breed to the APA Standard, the birds will perform as advertized. This is not the dog world.......I can never figure out why chickens are compared to dogs...they are not at all the same and dog shows are not the same as chicken shows.....not even close. My wife has shown dogs for over 25 years.....not the same breeding and not anywhere near the same at a show.

Walt
 
Boy you hit the nail on head Walt. When you line breed chickens It would take me twenty years to take hatchery chickens to the level of what we have pictured on most of the H treads and this one every day. If people want these guys for eggs and easy in and easy out each year or two that's the purpose. Line breeding and selection of the top birds to their parents and trying to breed them to the type of the standard is the goal of a Preservationist Breeder. No difference in the two likes dogs vs chickens.

Either you are trying to improve them each year or not is the difference. Only one in about 500 will do this. I am happy to have a bunch of your trying to do this. Maybe we can have more rare old time chickens from the 1960s and latter around in five years. We can only count on select specialty

Poultry Breeders to do this. That is why sometimes it is so hard to locate some rare breeds. No one breeds them much anymore.

Thanks for the tips on the Silver Laced Wyandotte's. Will see if we can locate some.
 
My New Hampshires are now 10 wks. old. I am very surprised at the fast rate they have been growing. Lately, they started to develop a sheen over their crisp, clean burnt sienna color. They are pleasure to have and watch them develop. Well, needless to say; I simply love them : )


Walt Leonard-Fowlman01- birds.
Wow. I *knew* production NH were lightweights type-wise, but I honestly didn't know NH could be gorgeous. When do they hit POL?
Walt,
Areyou sure that that critter is not the stuffed one that Johnny Batson showed at the ABA national one year ? As I remember, his coop tag read,"Believed to be dead, Needs to show more animation."
It moves, but even the predators don't want anything to do with it.w.
lau.gif
<deep breath>
gig.gif

What are you going to do with ChickenStein's monster then?
 
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