Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[fowlman01]

I bet this thing's crow is stellar in addition to his other fine qualities!!

I have acquired two chickens in the last month. This thing and an OEG type chicken that actually looks pretty good (dubbed etc like a game bird) but he is afraid of everything running loose here including hens. The OE did fly over the fence.

I haven't seen this thing crow. If Bob didn't want it I guess I could sell it here for $75-100 bucks.....like the other culls peeps get so much for online.

w.

 

[bantams galore]

Would a beginner that didn't have the "perfect" bird to clone from yet, be better off to set up a quad mating, each hen with different strengths and the best male, so that there would be more chance of keeping all the needed attributes in the birds? Maybe not since the goal is to get all the perfect attributes in the same bird.

I was just thinking a "little Flock" like a quad, keep the hens for 3-4 years and replace the male each year with a son, and then get a new male, might work.

 

[Chickens Naturally]

They better not look brown in artificial light either. There are several judges that have the perception that these German NH's are brown....and some are. Some of the ones I had were brown, but they don't live here anymore. The brown birds look brown in the sun too. I don't hear anyone talking about that. Type is the most important ,but if a whole bird is the wrong color it doesn't make much difference in a show, you won't do well.

To people who think dogs and other livestock that are shown are like chickens....if folks breed to the APA Standard, the birds will perform as advertized. This is not the dog world.......I can never figure out why chickens are compared to dogs...they are not at all the same and dog shows are not the same as chicken shows.....not even close. My wife has shown dogs for over 25 years.....not the same breeding and not anywhere near the same at a show.

Walt

Walt I may not have been clear enough about ‘why’ I was comparing separate species. For anyone who may have taken my post to mean that I am suggesting that you should breed your chickens as you would breed dogs, that is not what I’m saying. Let me see if I can clear that up. My intention was not to imply that dog and chicken breeding practices are the same. I was pointing out that with working breed animals, (regardless of species, I used dogs as an example) there is in place a system of checks and balances; if the animal does not perform as intended it is obviously culled with less chance of error.

My post was in response to someone looking for advice on when and how to line breed. What I am saying is that, as a breeder, your job is harder when working toward a standard is the only check and balance because, correct me if I’m wrong, the SOP does not address the utility aspect (as in dogs the working ability) of the breeding process. If that is correct, then form does not guarantee anything, it allows for it, but does not guarantee anything. The animals only have to be of proper type to allow for utility traits which is all well and good, but not when selecting fitness for your breeding program.

As Jeff pointed out, if a strain of chickens are bred with emphasis on egg production at the expense of type, color etc., then obviously those qualities will not advance, be maintained and may likely deteriorate as a result, which I’m sure you are more than well aware of. Conversely, if poor egg production, infertility and hatchability become issues within a strain then you have lost the productivity (and vigor) that made that animal useful to begin with. Why is that? Well that was the topic; avoiding poor selection and poor breeding practices. The SOP does not address these issues, correct? It is up to the breeder to maintain function and select fit breeders. I believe the SOP is vital in many breeds because there is no testing involved such as say, how many sheep are corralled or how many rats are killed by a Rat Terrier. In other words, just because a chicken has ‘form that allows for’ does not mean it has the ability. It was not my intent to compare dog and chicken breeding for any other purpose than to point out the challenges in selecting breeding stock.

The question was about line breeding and I was attempting to explain, as best I could, the importance of selecting breed stock and all that that entails. My intention was to help the breeder by explaining that when selecting stock for line breeding, care should be taken to select not only for show qualities and type, but also health and vigor (which I believe they are at a disadvantage when compared to breeders of working stock of both chickens and dogs) because, in my opinion, that would be the smart thing to do. It’s important not to begin a line breeding program with a Cock that is not healthy, fertile and vigorous and maybe not a bad idea to consider utility aspects as well. This Cock is going to be bred for generations and set his genes in his offspring so he needs to be fit. He could be bred to the SOP and die before the second breeding. In my opinion the breeder would need to be judicious about determining the worth of the stock because you don’t have the luxury, as with dogs, of knowing that dog won’t hunt.

Hope that clears that up. I find comparisons a useful way to understanding the workings of things, but everyone doesn’t think the same way, just my humble opinion and attempt to help out someone out if I can. If I’m wrong I’d appreciate correction from anyone after all I don’t want to do things the wrong way or waste time and money either.

Mitch

 

[AletaG]

OEGB's will be a disappointment to you if you are looking to them for eggs....but then I have told you that before. I have had them for 40 years. If you want a bantam that no one could dispute is a heritage bird, try the Nankins. They are the same size of OE's but lay better and have bigger eggs. They come in only one color and two comb types. (r/c and s/c). You are not going to find oegb's called "heritage" unless some soccer mom on here calls them that. They are not thought of as "heritage" but are old enough to fit that title. Real poultry people don't consider bantams heritage birds because they have little use other than ornamental. Online is not really the pulse of the poultry fancy. I believe about 1% of what I read here.

I would love to see what these OE "breeders" are knocking out. Just because a person makes babies with chickens.....that doesn't make them a breeder.

Walt

Yup, you certainly were one of several who said don't bother OEGB if you want eggs... So I started nosing around, and was having a hard time finding what I was after. The single-minded threads are nice *once you figure out what you want* but I LOVE this thread because I've found out a lot about Heritage LF in general... and, was unaware that small stature made bantam types ineligible for a heritage designation... what about the very, very long history in Game fowl for other purposes? Or is that more like, Ancient Historical Battle Fowl - LOL! I've have definitely figured out there's a difference between a breeder and a, well, wholesaler of chickens. If you like, could PM you the profile names, n' you can vet 'em for me. BUT, since I'm not thinking that OEGB are the way to go, it would only be because you'd like to wreak mighty havoc. So there!
I've noticed you sign "w." when you aren't being too serious, and "Walt" when you have taken up the mantel, sword and shield for the Poultry?
-Aleta G.
Squire, studying to become Knight of Poultry Heritage, standard bearer to HRIR, crossed (not literally, just on the colours) with unknown bantam.
(And yes, plan to join APA and HRIR club come Spring, or maybe will ask for those as "stocking stuffers" for Christmas)

 

[fowlman01]

Yup, you certainly were one of several who said don't bother OEGB if you want eggs... So I started nosing around, and was having a hard time finding what I was after. The single-minded threads are nice *once you figure out what you want* but I LOVE this thread because I've found out a lot about Heritage LF in general... and, was unaware that small stature made bantam types ineligible for a heritage designation... what about the very, very long history in Game fowl for other purposes? Or is that more like, Ancient Historical Battle Fowl - LOL! I've have definitely figured out there's a difference between a breeder and a, well, wholesaler of chickens. If you like, could PM you the profile names, n' you can vet 'em for me. BUT, since I'm not thinking that OEGB are the way to go, it would only be because you'd like to wreak mighty havoc. So there!
I've noticed you sign "w." when you aren't being too serious, and "Walt" when you have taken up the mantel, sword and shield for the Poultry?
-Aleta G.
Squire, studying to become Knight of Poultry Heritage, standard bearer to HRIR, crossed (not literally, just on the colours) with unknown bantam.
(And yes, plan to join APA and HRIR club come Spring, or maybe will ask for those as "stocking stuffers" for Christmas)

Walt and w. has more to do with how rushed I am, but you may call me Mr Leonard. What is HRIR? There is no official position on bantams being considered heritage or not. "Heritage" is just a buzz word used online and it is never used in the real poultry community. If you want to be sure everyone knows your are a newbie use "heritage" often and attach it to any breed you think is heritage.

Mr Leonard

 

[fowlman01]

Mitch,

I am going to make a wild assumption here and guess that you don't not own an APA Standard. It does address performance, but you have to read the first 40 pages to know that. Most people just go to their breed and read the description. bib mistake!

Walter

 

[cbnovick]

It moves, but even the predators don't want anything to do with it.

w.

Yes,
In my experience, predators do seem to have good taste.

 

[RiddleMe]

Ok, a question for all you old timers. I have a pen of 9 cockerels all housed together while I am letting them grow out a little more, they were hatched March 31st, so are not quite 5 months old. A couple of the birds hold their tails low. Is that due to pecking order issues, or is that a cullable trait? I haven't seen cockerels do this before, but then I've never kept a pen of so many for so long. They sleep overnight in a hoop house, and range in electric poultry netting during the day.


If this is a cullable trait, I will certainly go for it. But one of them in particular is a lovely bird in every other way but this, and if I should ignore it, I'd like to know. 


I am considering putting him up in a separate tractor just to see what would happen, but don't want to take him out of the range pen if I don't have to. TIA for advice on this one. 

 I have the same issue. Am interested in opinions.
 Thanks,
 Karen

I am in no way an old timer as I've only had cockerel grow out pens for two years but figured I'd answer and give this a bump. in my very limited experience, yes, a low tail can absolutely be a pecking order thing. I saw it in a couple birds last year and one again this year. As a matter of fact, just this month, I pulled the dominant cockerel out for a week and almost immediately had one boy start carrying his tail about 20 degrees higher. It went right back down when the dominant boy was reintroduced.

 

[Chickens Naturally]

Mitch,

I am going to make a wild assumption here and guess that you don't not own an APA Standard. It does address performance, but you have to read the first 40 pages to know that. Most people just go to their breed and read the description. bib mistake!

Walter

Well I can honestly say that my experience comes from working stock where the proof is in the pudding so to speak. You are correct about my ignorance of the SOP. Breeding to a standard will be a whole new thing for me, but at present I was considering purchasing the book, joining some clubs, purchasing some fowl and breeding. In light of my inexperience in these areas and until I do purchase a copy of the SOP and get educated more or less, I am intrigued as to how the written word could guarantee that I have the healthiest, most fit Cock to line breed from, other than saying I should select a healthy, fit etc., Cock to breed from, could you elaborate? I would have thought that the SOP gave the example, but was still up to the breeder to make the wisest selection concerning fitness, health and vigor.

I was simply sharing what I have learned over the years breeding working animals. I wasn’t attempting to quote the SOP, that’s why I stated that “this is my opinion as I understand it based on what I know from my personal experience, but I am not a master breeder”. I am at a loss as to exactly what I said that you take issue with other than you’re dislike of my choice of comparison? Is there any advice that I gave that was incorrect? Besides my personal perspective is there anything wrong with the advice I gave? Is it incompatible with the SOP?

Here to share and learn, thanks

Mitch

 

[gjensen]

I am of the opinion that it is wrong to assume that breeding to a Standard equals good performance.

I am also of the opinion that the Standard was written with performance in mind. Size requirements and all.

Some of the finest birds, type wise, that I have ever owned, have been the worst performers. Some of the worst typed birds that I have ever owned, have been the best performers.

There is a lot of things that you cannot see or feel that influences how a bird might perform.

Breeding to a standard only means poultry that produces if the breeder is concerned whether or not his/her birds produce.

Examples of poultry breeds often fall in one of three camps. Either they look like great examples and are practically useless, are junk and are useless or junk and productive. A bird that produces and is a good example of the breed is hard to find.