Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Mrs. Turbo]

Quote:
We also find the birds to be smaller when hatched in the fall. I think they use a lot of energy to stay warm in the winter and the don't eat as much. Kathy, your birds are on the way and should be on the plane by 4

 

[kathyinmo]

Mrs. Turbo :

Quote:
We also find the birds to be smaller when hatched in the fall. I think they use a lot of energy to stay warm in the winter and the don't eat as much. Kathy, your birds are on the way and should be on the plane by 4

I will be waiting at the post office at 6AM tomorrow!

 

[lildinkem]

I hope this question will help not just me but everyone who raises, a new to them flock of heritage fowl.
I recieved a small starter flock of Black Orpingtons that all were derived off Cecil Moore Blacks Orpington lines. A couple of these hens are pure to Cecil's line.
Now my breeder who sent me these Blacks, said each hen is a is a bit different pure line or variation off of Cecil's birds. Two are pure Cecil line hens. Which are a bit different too, but their pure Cecil's work. The other two are 50% Norm and Gayle Pontious on Cecil's line. These are my main breeding hens. I kept three cockerels, all from a different parent stock hen.
Here is the question. I am told by that breeder, who gave me my Blacks, to take the cockerels from these original Moore hens & cock, back to their mothers. This Black Orpington breeder says this will give me 4 different Cecil Moore based lines, two are pure Cecil lines, but all have Cecil lines. Her reasoning is, I want to center on one blood line (Cecil's). She said IF I do this I can go forever bouncing these lines off of each other every 3 or 4 years, and maintain the classic Moore line look. Does this make sense?
Now I also have one here on BYC telling me to not do what I was told by the Black Orp breeder of my Moore lines. I guess that one person wants me to keep running the original cock & hens together? Original cock is closer to 9 lbs then 10. Is that what one should do before their hens stop laying. I can always go back and do that. But, my hens are going on three. And I am not sure IF I should go that route with a smaller cock?

Right now I am sticking to what the original Black Orp Cecil Moore line breeder says to do.


What do you guys do when starting a heritge flock?

 

[greathorse]

This is a bit long, but may be helpful to some folks looking for heritage fowl from veteran breeders. I wrote this for the Rhode Island Red Chronical. Not sure if it was used in the recent publication or not. I am not a writer and apologize in advance for bad sentence structure, bad syntax and bad puncuation. I hope the following article can help someone in their pursuit of heritage birds.

How to find the good birds
(How to ask the right questions)

Let’s make no mistake I do not consider myself a breeder in any way shape or form. I am a person that has taken an interest in poultry and hope to some day have enough experience and knowledge to not only gather some breeding stock but be able to make good enough decisions about my birds to improve on my chosen strain. A simple enough goal I suppose but also not achieved without a lot of work.

My goal in writing this article is to assist others in their quest to find a breed or strain that interests them and just as importantly a breeder that can help them.

I also humbly hope to provide some awareness to the wise, life long breeders in how they may provide a bit more access to the product of their breeding efforts. It is my observation that breeders do not have a great understanding about how ignorant those of us who have acquired a bit of an interest can really be. And even more importantly, how (Wanna be Breeders) have even less appreciation for the art, science and effort that breeders have put into their birds.

In most cases neither veteran breeder nor new enthusiast mean harm and have the best intent, but through lack of understanding and through impatience the two can sometimes miss each other even if the end goal is the same.

I decided through some research, going to shows, seeing some birds, having some hatchery stock etc. that I would like to find some good quality Rhode Island Red exhibition stock. Should be easy enough right? Get on the web Google the darn things and walla!

Well, maybe not. In my first post on Crohio/reds I didn’t really know nor did I indicate if I wanted single comb, Rose comb, bantams etc. So my first request to the forum was met with stone silence. I think my question was as simple as “where can I buy Exhibition RIR”? Imagine the impertinence of these guys reading my post and not responding. So I did what I too often do, given my impatient nature, I posted again not as politely this time ( By the way thanks to Matt Lahmon for taking those down) and I did get a response or two. A bit terse perhaps but responses like “what are you looking for”? Do you have strain in mind? Are you a Club member? Do you take the Poultry Press? Hmm, all questions I didn’t know existed and all answers I went looking for. Matt may have even suggested the virtue of patience in one of his responses.

My next post to the group was phrased a bit differently. I gave a bit of my background, my reason for the interest and that LF probably Single comb was what I was looking for.

Bob Blosl (in my humble opinion) one of the true ambassadors for all show fowl sent me an email with a few names to reach out to gave me a couple of pointers about my communication style and next thing you know I found Greg Chamness and the Mohawk line. There are those that believe this could be the most rare strain left in the U.S. and I am proud to have them. I hope to take a few pullets to the Shawnee OK. Show in December and hopefully take a few to the National Western Stock Show in Denver in January
.
Greg showed patience in my persistent query’s about when his breeders were going to start laying and when I was going to get my chicks. Thanks again to Greg for allowing me to have these birds. He indeed sent two different shipments, one of which was lost for too long with the postal service and I only managed to save a couple of them. The second shipment went much better and I now have about a half a dozen pullets and a few cockerels that need sorting out. It was through clumsy tenacity that I was able to find these quality birds. My hope is that others can get the same place with a little less fumbling.

So here are a few of my suggestions for those of us looking for quality breeders.
Approach breeders with what I refer to as polite genuine curiosity. Your first question should not be “where can I buy some of these”? Do as much research as you can before you begin to look for birds. Take as many periodical and magazines as you can so that you can be connected.. Learn the jargon/vernacular of the poultry world as quickly as you can so you don’t sound like an idiot every time you open your mouth. (hard lesson for me.) All questions to breeders and experts should be as specific as possible and as short as possible. Finally consider it a gift when you get your hands on a breed or strain that someone has been breeding on for a lifetime.

To breeders I again humbly suggest that some of us simply have no idea where to start, hence the bad questions. A quick point in the right direction from a person that has experience can go a long way in giving us confidence to continue our search.

I also discovered that if one is patient at the shows and pays attention you will likely be able to have a good conversation with the breeder of the birds you like. At the last show I attended, some White Rock Bantams caught my eye and I could tell by the way the person walking the aisle was looking at them that they were either his or he was familiar with them. To me each bird looked exactly alike (they were peas in a pod) so I simply asked him if he could tell me the differences he saw. This started a great conversation about breeding and fitting birds that I will remember and cherish forever. And it took me one more small step closer to my goal of knowing and recognizing quality when I see it and having the ability to proudly display my birds on a show floor.

 

[Mrs. Turbo]

a good line to use at a show to get a breeder to talk to you...... find out what bird is theirs and walk up to them and the bird and say "WOW, that is a nice silkie " or what ever breed you are interested in. That will get them talking for sure....

worked for us when we started out.

 

[fowlman01]

That was an important post, but I didn't need to post it twice.


In most cases neither veteran breeder nor new enthusiast mean harm and have the best intent, but through lack of understanding and through impatience the two can sometimes miss each other even if the end goal is the same.


If I am understanding this correctly, I think this has happened to me.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
I would believe the breeder who supplied your birds. I have line bred. (Father to daughter/mother to son) for over 40 years with very good success. I would say that most old time breeders use this method. The original cock and hens could be brother and sister, which is not what I would want to use. Sometimes you have to, but it is not the best option. The picture of the Orp in my avatar was the result of many years of line breeding. You can go back and forth between the father, daughter and mother son lines for vigor if needed. It works for me and I have had some successes.

I would keep the Cecil Moore line pure if you can. He is one of the very best Orp breeders alive today.

Walt Leonard

 

[fowlman01]

Mrs. Turbo :

a good line to use at a show to get a breeder to talk to you...... find out what bird is theirs and walk up to them and the bird and say "WOW, that is a nice silkie " or what ever breed you are interested in. That will get them talking for sure....

worked for us when we started out.

That works​

 

[lildinkem]

Quote:
I would believe the breeder who supplied your birds. I have line bred. (Father to daughter/mother to son) for over 40 years with very good success. I would say that most old time breeders use this method. The original cock and hens could be brother and sister, which is not what I would want to use. Sometimes you have to, but it is not the best option. The picture of the Orp in my avatar was the result of many years of line breeding. You can go back and forth between the father, daughter and mother son lines for vigor if needed. It works for me and I have had some successes.

I would keep the Cecil Moore line pure if you can. He is one of the very best Orp breeders alive today.

Walt Leonard

I like your Buff. My favorite Buff Orpington line is from a guy (Josh Yarnell) southwest of Bloomington IN who has his Buffs from his granny. I found out about htem from the guy who gave me my first Buffs. My first Buffs I got from Larry who bought them as chicks from Doug. Josh's granny had Buffs since the 70's. Very unique with big chests. sorta gangly as they grow. I was the last to a six $6 Buff cockerel Craigslist sale. And these are my first attempt to breeding Buff Orpingtons. I can't count them as heritage, since I crossed these lines. But, Josh said his granny would only on occasion get a new Buff at a show through the years. So, Buffs are really close to my heart. I have some nice Buffs from very reputable breeders that I focused on breeding up some numbers this past breeding season. But, I really wished I did more with my Yarnell granny/Akers line. Now as the thirteen I had kept and culled down to just 9 (5 being cockerels)are all I have to work with plus thei hens they came from which is only two. That is what I culled down to. And this spring I definitely am giving them much higher credit.
Now I have been told to cull down to my broadest chest and biggest heads first. I went from 9 cockerels to 5. I forwarded pics to friends and they say take them all to the Lebanon IN Show on Oct 16th and get a judge's opinion for both, the one who shows the best, and the one in which to use for breeding. It was emphasized to me, that the better bird all around MAY not be the one to breed better Buffs. So, I am showing 5 Buff cockerels who will be barely 7 months old. And I know they have no chance on beating a 10 or 11 month ole. And that is fine. I am there paying with a smile $3 a bird for the judge to thoroughly give me an evaluation. Amd I will always show for this reason only. So, get ready to see alot of younger Orpingtons here in Indiana shows. And bare with me as I raise up my different lines of Buffs lolol

Oh one more idea I read and was told is a good idea. Is to take a bunch of pics of your original parent/grandparent stock to keep as a guide to what to look for as you raise newer generations. I think that is a good idea too. I have alot of pics from my original lines of Orpingtons.

 

[cybercat]

Lildinkem your sig just makes me laugh. Being an ex GSD breeder I can related.

I think one thing many new people to breeding have some trouble with is not understanding the law of gentics. It is not all about taking a+b and getting c. If it was we would all be much better off or not depending on how easy you like things to be. Before I started breeding animals which are more years than I care to remember, I read alot about breeding and gentics on many species. You do not have to be a rock scientist to understand it. There are some great books that break it down in simple terms and let you understand the more advance terms in your time. As I said before breeding is an art form. Where it is each indivdual interpitation on what they final product is to be like.

I know here on BYC I have seen some strange answers to breeding questions. Everyone has an opion but not every is correct. Common sense go a long ways on this forum. You are on the right track.


BTW I am a bookoholic. I have spent more time reading then sleeping or eating or even on the net. Although I do read alot on the net also now. Science and chemistry fasinate me. Guess I got that from my father.