Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[jenjscott]

We got some of the Superior RIR and Orpingtons from Roy in Arkansas and they are sure nice. I'm on my second year with Buckeyes from Dave Puthoff in Ohio and am really getting some nice pullets this year. I got some from Laura a little late this summer, the jury is still out on them. I've got a nice little group of broody hens , thinking of trying to start a broody line. How strongly is this inherited, if at all? I ended up with 2 roo and a hen barred holland, they seem a little small but the color is good, no eggs yet. I have some eggs coming next week from someone else and will see how that goes.

Trap nesting is where the hen can't leave the nest after she lays until you let her out so the eggs can be marked for parentage. You know exactly which egg came from which hen. On a small scale you can do the same thing with food coloring in the vent. Laura Haggarty wrote an interesting eHow article on this subject.

 

[joletabey]

Thank you, Jen - the food coloring thing sounds like something I should look up, I am not too handy with building things.

 

[Jared77]

I've got a nice little group of broody hens , thinking of trying to start a broody line. How strongly is this inherited, if at all?

It is a breedable trait, I've had great success with American Singers (canaries) and some success with Gouldians (finches) to breed for good mothers who sit and will feed their chicks. Canaries can be good parents, but sometimes they are not and Gouldians are notoriously horrible parents because the hatch rate was more important than the parents raising them. Its a common practice for Gouldian breeders to foster the eggs that's a generally accepted practice with them. I discovered that hens who were bad mothers produced chicks who turned into bad mothers. I was fostering out eggs to be raised by my Society finches who'd sit on an ostrich egg if I put it under one of them they are absolutely AMAZING parents. I kept track of who was a bad parent and their chicks by their band numbers and quickly saw a pattern. The chicks hatched from bad parents would grow up to be parents too and I forced to foster their eggs. Bad parent means abandoning the nest, not sitting, or not feeding and sitting their chicks once hatched.

I got rid of all the poor parents and stopped fostering eggs out. If they didn't sit they didn't stay. If they didn't feed their chicks they didn't stay. It was that simple. Within a few generations I had all great parents who were all solid mothers and would feed very well. Though with Gouldians it was a very uphill battle as the trait was all but bred out of them but I found a few who sat and worked from there. Its very doable just takes making broody behavior a priority when selecting for hens.​

 

[Robert Blosl]

Well we hit 60 pages that is something. Yes the person who got the chickens was Roy Autrey from Arkansas. I talked to him on the phone yesterday about Rhode Island Reds and then one thing lead to another. The one thing about Superior Farms was the birds that came on this farm was from the top blood lines in the Country. Money was no object. So even the project never was a success the genes are there in the birds that where purchased from the farm. Roy has his hands full as he has about twenty breeds but I will post his web site and you can contact him for your needs. Sometimes you have to give these fellows a year or two to get the numbers up as they may only have a few of these birds. I have learned in man of these rare breeds that you want some fellows only have a few birds less than ten. So if you want to build up numbers you are going to have to start something that I call Networking. That is you share your birds with each other by shipping started chicks at say four or five weeks of age. Or you exchange or swap eggs. Maybe you have to drive a hundred miles one way and your friend is going that way and you meet them at a Wall Mart in a small town. Then you swap the eggs put them in the back of the car and go home and put them in the incubator. Its done all the time with Heritage seeds. People ship seads to each other and then help the next guy out when he wants some. My wife and I are getting into this with our Garden.

I have some people who tell me that some of the breeds they are working with are very poor in qualtiy. They are not much better than hatchery stuff. Some breeds you can only get from a hatchery and then you are going to have to learn how to breed them up and improve them. No buddy wants a black and white cicken when they are trying to breed a colubian rock or light brahma. Thats what I had when I was a kid. It would have taken me 30 years to improve these light brahmas. But two years latter I found a man in Portland Oregon named Mr. Shear who had the old fasion Light Brahmas and when you see ten or fiveteen of these running around big and round and with such fantastic color you are happy and proud you got the old fasion light brahmas. They are a great breeed of cicken.

Trap nest is a wire door that rests up on the top of the nest and when the hen goes into the nest her back hits the door and when she sits down to lay her egg the door comes down and she is traped in the nest untill you come and let her out. You put her band number on the egg with a number two pencill date it and you are off. You log this into a log book and keep records of how many eggs she layed from day one as a pullet til the last egg of the season for her befor she went into a molt. Leghrons reached a record of say 300 eggs in a year. Average flock numbers might be say 240 eggs per year. You then would mate the best sons from these high scoring hens to other hens that layed great nubers of eggs and breed them up. In Production Reds that had brown leghron blood in them they would get up to say 240 to 280 eggs per year but they did not look like a Rhode Island Red. They looked more like a New Hampshire. They also produced roosters that could be mean and attach you or your children. So when you write me and tell me your RHode Island Red attachs your children I know right off the batt you got produciton style reds. That is where this trait develped. Its interesting about you breeding your finches to be good mothers. This is what Ralph Sutregoen taught in his book Start Where you Are with What you Got Putting breeding pressuer on a trait and in time you will reach your goal.

This was done with the Buckeye breed and I think many of the folks that are breeding them have learned the methods taught by the leader of this program a few years ago.
Well enough said. I got to go outside and change the water in the Call Duck Pens and then get ready to go to work. bob


http://www.affgoats.com/large_fowl.html

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
It is a breedable trait, I've had great success with American Singers (canaries) and some success with Gouldians (finches) to breed for good mothers who sit and will feed their chicks. Canaries can be good parents, but sometimes they are not and Gouldians are notoriously horrible parents because the hatch rate was more important than the parents raising them. Its a common practice for Gouldian breeders to foster the eggs that's a generally accepted practice with them. I discovered that hens who were bad mothers produced chicks who turned into bad mothers. I was fostering out eggs to be raised by my Society finches who'd sit on an ostrich egg if I put it under one of them they are absolutely AMAZING parents. I kept track of who was a bad parent and their chicks by their band numbers and quickly saw a pattern. The chicks hatched from bad parents would grow up to be parents too and I forced to foster their eggs. Bad parent means abandoning the nest, not sitting, or not feeding and sitting their chicks once hatched.

I got rid of all the poor parents and stopped fostering eggs out. If they didn't sit they didn't stay. If they didn't feed their chicks they didn't stay. It was that simple. Within a few generations I had all great parents who were all solid mothers and would feed very well. Though with Gouldians it was a very uphill battle as the trait was all but bred out of them but I found a few who sat and worked from there. Its very doable just takes making broody behavior a priority when selecting for hens.

That method will also work with chickens. Good information.

Walt

 

[CubRed]

Bob, Thanks for your explaination of trap nest!!!

 

[Chris09]

There has been a good amount of great information about Heritage Breeds in this thread so I thought I would post some Nutritional information that may help you in keeping these great breeds healthy.

Protein -
Protein is essential to the structure of red blood cells, for the proper functioning of antibodies resisting infection, for the regulation of enzymes and hormones, for growth, and for the repair of body tissue. Protein can be naturally produced in the body from processing Amino Acids, but can be supplemented as raw protein also.

Sources
• Meat and Fish
• Dairy Products
• Eggs
• Whole grains
Information from Ultimate Fowl

Amino acid -
In chemistry, an amino acid is a molecule containing both amine and carboxyl functional groups. These molecules are particularly important in biochemistry, where this term refers to alpha-amino acids with the general formula H2NCHRCOOH, where R is an organic substituent.[1] In the alpha amino acids, the amino and carboxylate groups are attached to the same carbon, which is called the α–carbon. The various alpha amino acids differ in which side chain (R group) is attached to their alpha carbon. They can vary in size from just a hydrogen atom in glycine through a methyl group in alanine to a large heterocyclic group in tryptophan.

Amino acids are critical to life, and have a variety of roles in metabolism. One particularly important function is as the building blocks of proteins, which are linear chains of amino acids. Amino acids are also important in many other biological molecules, such as forming parts of coenzymes, as in S-adenosylmethionine, or as precursors for the biosynthesis of molecules such as heme. Due to this central role in biochemistry, amino acids are very important in nutrition.

The amino acids are commonly used in food technology and industry. For example, monosodium glutamate is a common flavor enhancer that gives foods the taste called umami. Beyond the amino acids that are found in all forms of life, amino acids are also used in industry, with the production of biodegradable plastics, drugs and chiral catalysts being particularly important applications.
Information from Wikipedia

Amino Acids -
Amino acids play central roles both as building blocks of proteins and as intermediates in metabolism. The 20 amino acids that are found within proteins convey a vast array of chemical versatility. The precise amino acid content, and the sequence of those amino acids, of a specific protein, is determined by the sequence of the bases in the gene that encodes that protein. The chemical properties of the amino acids of proteins determine the biological activity of the protein. Proteins not only catalyze all (or most) of the reactions in living cells, they control virtually all cellular process. In addition, proteins contain within their amino acid sequences the necessary information to determine how that protein will fold into a three dimensional structure, and the stability of the resulting structure.

Amino Acids
• Alanine
• Arginine
• Asparagine
• Aspartic acid
• Creatine
• Cysteine
• Glutamic acid
• Glutamine
• Glycine
• Histidine
• Isoleucine
• Leucine
• Lysine
• Methionine
• Phenylalanine
• Proline
• Serine
• Threonine
• Tryptophan
• Tyrosine
• Valine

Sources
• Meat
• Milk
• Cheese
• Whole grains
• Rice
• Corn
• Beans
• Legumes
• Oatmeal
• Peas
• Fish
• Eggs
Information from Ultimate Fowl

Protein and Amino Acid Deficiencies -
The optimal level of balanced protein intake changes according to age; for growing chicks it is 18-23% of the diet; for growing poults and gallinaceous upland game birds, 26-30%; and for growing ducklings and goslings, 20-22%. If the protein and component Amino Acids content of the diet is below these levels, birds tend to grow more slowly. Even when a diet contains the recommended quantities of protein, satisfactory growth also requires sufficient quantities and proper balance of all the essential Amino Acids. Few specific signs are associated with a deficiency of the various Amino Acids, except for a peculiar cup-shaped appearance of the feathers in chickens with arginine deficiency and loss of pigment in some of the wing feathers in bronze turkeys with lysine deficiency. All deficiencies of essential Amino Acids result in retarded growth or reduced egg size or egg production. Some deficiencies or even imbalances of Amino Acids may be related to management problems such as hysteria, “pickouts” and “blowouts,” and Fatty Liver Hemorrhagic Syndrome.
Source.
Information from The Merck Veterinary Manual

Fat
Fats are a concentrated form of energy which help maintain body temperature, and protect body tissues and organs. Fat also plays an essential role in carrying the four fat-soluble vitamins: A, D, E, and K. Fat calories in food are readily stored, while it takes energy to transform protein and carbohydrates to body fat.

Sources -
• Corn
• Black Oil Sunflower Seeds
Information from Ultimate Fowl

Calcium -
Calcium is a very important part of a mature hens health, and laying eggs. Egg shells are almost completely made of calcium. Along with Vitamin D, calcium is a vital part of the egg laying process. If the calcium intake of your hens is not adequate, you can have problems with the consistency of their laying, and soft egg shells. High levels of calcium can cause problems too. Young fowl, and roosters typically don't need an extra source of calcium, and too much can be harmful to them. It is best not to feed a layer type feed to all your fowl for this reason. You are better off to give them a normal type feed, without added calcium, and provide a free choice source of calcium for them, like oyster shells, so the birds that need it for laying eggs, have access, but the birds that don't, won't have to eat the extra calcium that they don't need.

Sources
• Crushed oyster shells
• Yogurt
• Fishmeal
• Boiled egg shells
Information from Ultimate Fowl

Phosphorus -
Phosphorus is needed for healthy bones, energy metabolism, and acid base balance in the body.

Sources
• milk
• grains
• lean meats
Information from Ultimate Fowl

Calcium and Phosphorus Inbalances -
A deficiency of either calcium or phosphorus in the diet of young growing birds results in abnormal bone development even when the diet contains adequate vitamin D3. This condition, rickets, can also be caused by a dietary deficiency of vitamin D3 (Vitamin D3 Deficiency), which is necessary for absorption of calcium. A deficiency of either calcium or phosphorus results in lack of normal skeletal calcification. Rickets is seen mainly in growing birds. Calcium deficiency in adult laying hens usually results in reduced shell quality and osteoporosis. This depletion of bone structure causes a disorder commonly referred to as “cage layer fatigue.” When calcium is mobilized from bone to overcome a dietary deficiency, the cortical bone erodes and is unable to support the weight of the hen.
Information from The Merck Veterinary Manual

Vitamin D -
Vitamin D is produced naturally in the body when exposed to the ultra violet rays from the sun, and its main function is to maintain normal blood levels of calcium, and phosphorus. Lack of vitamin D can cause soft egg shells, and brittle, or thin bones in fowl. Vitamin D also helps keep your birds immune system strong, and can affect their over all growth, and development. Extreme cases of vitamin D deficiency can even lead to diseases like Rickets.

Sources
The best way to keep normal levels of vitamin D in you fowl's system is exposure to sunlight, but if you need to supplement, you can get it from the following sources.
• Fish (tuna, salmon, sardines, mackerel)
• Boiled egg yolk
• Liver
• Water soluble vitamin supplements
Information from Ultimate Fowl

I hope that this help you out some.

Chris

 

[Chris09]

Carbohydrates -
There are two types of Carbohydrates Simple and Complex both are a major source of energy.
Simple carbohydrates: Simple sugars are found in refined sugars, like the white sugar you'd find in a sugar bowl. But you'll also find simple sugars in more nutritious foods, such as fruit and milk. It's better to get your simple sugars from food like fruit and milk.

Complex carbohydrates: These are also called starches. Starches include grain products, such as bread, crackers, pasta, and rice. As with simple sugars, some complex carbohydrate foods are better choices than others. Refined grains, such as white flour and white rice, have been processed, which removes nutrients and fiber. But unrefined grains still contain these vitamins and minerals. Unrefined grains also are rich in fiber, which helps your digestive system work well. Fiber helps you feel full, so you are less likely to overeat these foods. That explains why a bowl of oatmeal fills you up better than sugary candy that has the same amount of calories as the oatmeal.

With that being said whole grains would be a source of complex carbohydrates and some simple carbohydrates.
When you eat carbs, the body breaks them down into simple sugars, which are absorbed into the bloodstream. Insulin is needed to move sugar from the blood into the cells, where the sugar can be used as a source of energy.

Sources
• Whole grains
• rice
• corn
• oats

Riboflavin -
Riboflavin is needed for energy metabolism, building tissue, and helps maintain good vision.

Sources
• dairy products
• lean meats
• poultry
• fish
• grains
• broccoli
• turnip greens
• asparagus
• spinach
Information form Ultimate Fowl

Chris

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Chris, great information. I've been researching a more natural diet since I met a guy from Romanian farm country that fed his birds grains and oyster shell only. (He said it was how they had done it for generations there. Also got our first Delawares from him.)

Based on all this, I'm thinking a blend of locally available grains (oats, barley, a little wheat), fishmeal, BOSS, and the generous portion of kitchen scraps I get from a local cafe should keep the kids in good order. Maybe supplementing for Vit. D sometimes, if we're not getting enough greens in the scraps.

I like the idea of heritage birds being on a diet that more resembles what they would have eaten when the breeds were developed!

 

[Chris09]

Copper -
Copper plays an important role in a number of enzyme functions in the bird. Copper is closely associated with iron metabolism as it is a part of ceruloplasmin which is an enzyme that plays an important role in the oxidation of ferrous to ferric iron, controlling the movement of iron from the reticuloendothelium to liver and then plasma, affecting red blood cell formation. A copper deficiency can cause microcytic hypochromic anemia. Another important enzyme dependent on copper is lysyl oxidase which is an integral enzyme in elastin and collagen formation in birds. A deficiency of copper can cause bone abnormalities due to abnormal collagen synthesis. Tibial dyschondroplasia is an example of a leg disorder in poultry that can be caused by a copper deficiency. Poor collagen and/or elastin formation can also lead to cardiovascular lesions and aortic ruptures. Copper is also important for feather development as well as feather colour via it’s role in disulfide bond formation. Iron has a very specific function in all animals as a component of the protein heme found in the red blood cell’s protein haemoglobin and in the muscle cell’s protein myoglobin. Iron has a rapid turnover rate in the chicken – 10 X per day, so it must be provided in a highly available form in the bird’s diet on a daily basis. Any internal infection such as coccidiosis can also interfere with iron absorption and availability. Iron deficiency can result in microcytic, hypochromic anemia in poultry.

information from zoo tecnica international

Iron -
Iron is needed for the formation of hemoglobin, which carries oxygen from the lungs to the body cells.

Sources
• Red Cell
• meats
• eggs
• green leafy vegetables
• legumes
• whole grains
Information from Ultimate Fowl

Iron and Copper Defiencies -
Deficiencies of both iron and copper can lead to anemia. Iron deficiency causes a severe anemia with a reduction in PCV. In color-feathered strains, there is also loss of pigmentation in the feathers. The birds’ requirements for RBC synthesis take precedence over metabolism of feather pigments, although if a fortified diet is introduced, all subsequent feather growth is normal. Iron may be needed not only for the red feather pigments, which are known to contain iron, but also to function in an enzyme system involved in feather pigmentation. Ochratoxin at 4-8 µg/g diet also causes an iron deficiency characterized by hypochromic microcytic anemia. Aflatoxin also reduces iron absorption. High levels of iron salts can lead to formation of insoluble phosphates in the digesta, with reduced phosphorus absorption and subsequent incidence of rickets. Insoluble iron phosphates produce a colloidal suspension that may also adsorb vitamins and other trace minerals. Such problems will not occur unless supplements exceed normal levels by at least 10-fold. Young chicks become lame in 2-4 wk when fed a copper-deficient diet. Bones are fragile and easily broken, epiphyseal cartilage becomes thickened, and vascular penetration of the thickened cartilage is markedly reduced. These bone lesions in chickens are quite different from those seen in other farm animals and resemble the bone changes noted in birds with vitamin A deficiency. Copper-deficient chickens also show ataxia and spastic paralysis. Copper deficiency in birds, and especially in turkeys, can lead to rupture of the aorta. The biochemical lesion in the copper-deficient aorta is likely related to failure to synthesize desmosine, the cross-link precursor of elastin. The lysine content of copper-deficient elastin is 3 times that seen in control birds, suggesting failure to incorporate lysine into the desmosine molecule. In field cases of naturally occurring aortic rupture, many birds have <10 ppm copper in the liver, compared with 15-30 ppm normally seen in birds of comparable age. High levels of sulfate, molybdenum, and ascorbic acid can reduce liver copper levels. A high incidence of aortic rupture has been seen in turkeys fed 4-nitrophenylarsonic acid. The problem can be resolved by feeding higher levels of copper, suggesting that products such as 4-nitro may complex with copper. Most practical diets for poultry contain adequate iron and copper. Nevertheless, feed manufacturers often add small amounts as an insurance measure
Information from The Merck Veterinary Manual


Chris