Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[aveca]

The SOP says broad and deep for an Orp. Not big. Some dual purpose birds do have WIDE heads. I was talking about what I saw in the Cleavenger birds, not what the birds should have. More of a perception thing.
Btw: I don't believe everything I read even if it is old. I feel much safer using my own experience or asking someone else who has actually done some of this stuff.
The best layers are hybrids designed to lay only and to lay for a fairly brief time, so I don't know how that compares to anything that was said.

Walt

i ask, you answer..good discussion...there is so much to learn for so many of us..I get a lot of good misinformation so I throw it out there...you have the experience out there to give appropriate answers... I do know what I like..I saw an old lithograph years ago of a blk orp..been searching for that bird ever since..classic type, sweet face and expression..I found some very close..they have a unique face for sure..the clevanger birds are big, it would stand to reason thier head would be in balance with that..big head bigger neck better gravey.....Oh yes Ive seen those big headed birds, im just not too big a braggard...Might even have a couple.

my roosters head was so wide, we had to make special provisions for him to get a drink, he couldnt get a drink out of the biggest waterer.

I get picked on by freinds a lot, they call me the easter bunny farmer..eat the eggs but not the culls..My freind and I traded some aussies couple years ago, he eats them on the grill the extra boys..he said gotta hand it to you Lynne, those birds had some good meat on them.he feeds them buttermilk oats corn and something else to prep for that.

your right the clevangers do look a little on the fat side or easy keeper..they probably got fat on a few grains every day..it was probably a cost saver..but the owner would have to watch it..

 

[Robert Blosl]

Another thing - I have heard some say - for example, "the genes are there," when they have a cull from good stock. (Well, of course, there are always culls.) In my opinion, "the genes are NOT there," and that is why the bird was a cull. Not ALL genes are passed on.
Tell me, Walt and Bob, is my thinking right here?.


You are right Kathy. After about three years of breeding and God knows how many hours of reading and phone interviews of the masters befor they died I came up with this thinking. The genes are there and I as abreeder have to go after the ones I want and cull the ones that I dont want. Ralph Sturgeon made me think its like cooking fried fish after you get done in a few hours all the clean oil is on the top and the sedament is on the bottom. You take a big spoon and take the good oil and put it in a jar and when you get down to the sedament of rustic looking oil you take it out side and put it on the back fence and let it go. You can re -use the good oil for another batch of fish next time. In my breeding I kept the females that matured the fastest and layed befor the other females and took two of them and breed them the next year. Then that spring I would watch the chicks as they where in the brooder box for early fast development and would put magic markers color on thier down color to mark them and put that mark on a three by five index card. Latter in a month I would wing band them. I would watch thier groth and again out of say thirty females I would pick the best looking fastest growing birds and do this all over agian. I did this for five years in a row. Each year they would grow faster, lay thier eggs sooner and befor I knew it I had a strain of Reds that layed about 200 eggs in thier pullet year. They had gone from poor feather quality on thier backs to tight webing, they had incradable brick shape type and I had searched for the lost genes which I called the Mohawk gene. It was thier all the time since 1929 just waiting to be plucked by me.
Another example when I was doing research on Black Javas for a article I wrote for the Poutlry Press and the Java Club. There was a farm musium in Illinois or some where that had some of Urchs old Black Javas and one day he hatched a chick that was blusinsh red or something. Then some one else a year or so latter hatched a chick just like this one but the oppoist sex. They crossed the two togeather and the next thing they knew they had a new color of Javas. Not black or mottled but this color. I then found out in the ealry days of black Javas they had this color pattern but never got it in the stanard so the color pattern died and went to the way side. This color pattern was just laying there in these black javas for over 100 years just waiting to be found.
We have a lost gene in Rhode Island Reds that I always look for it a chick that has blueish down color. These chicks are like the white Buffalo that is Born every once in a while in the planes where they are breed. They produce great colored birds they say in the old days by great Hall of Fame breeders. So you as a breeder have to be a person who is hunting for lost genes. My first article I ever wrote for the Red Club was called In Search of the Lost Genes and I still to this day looking for these classic old genes when selecting my breeders for next year.
In Orpingtons those classic old great birds are still there waiting to come out and help you. If there is a look you want do what Mr. Sturegeon use to say to me. Put breeding pressure on the trait or gene and it will come to the surface. In your project with Delawares you are in a new frontier. You are trying to invent a old breed. Their are others out thier that have other stains and have to try to push the good barring and type to the surface. Is it there to be found I am not confident that it is. It may take 20 years for them to improve just one point. However, I think your method will have faster progress in five to eight years.
Searcing for the lost gnes is what is fun in breeding. Only one in three to five hundered breeders can do it. That is why Mr. Sturegeon use to say many are called but few are chosen.
Boy you guys sure did kick this thread up a notch. Thank you so much.
Off to feed the birds and look for lost genes. Funny thing the reason I called Mr. Brazelton 27 years ago was to buy the trap nests that he was advertising in the Poutlry Press that he use to use. Best phone call I ever made. bob

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

Bob,

Do you still have any of those trapnests? Photos?

 

[Chris09]

Bob,



Quote:
Well we shall see how the White Buffalo's do this year, I just hatched about 6 Single Comb Reds with the Steel Blue under tone.

Chris

 

[aveca]

Kathy is somone who has put tons of time and effort into breeding great birds..the only time i have seen a conversation about culls is ray connors the australorp..you have to keep in context that ray connor and his freinds are considered master breeders in australia..well respected world wide for their acheivments, one of rays freinds said tohim , give me your 3 rd worst, i will come back and beat you with them in 3 years..he did just that..but again these are considered master breeders and it would be almost inconseivable that ray connor has a 3 rd worst..it is in the book, he goes into why your show birds are not always your best b reeders, some of it ws over my head..interesting.. i could see how quickly they could be broken down by people who do not know what they are doing.

every word out of my nephews mouth is Type..loose the type you have a different breed..and it sure is a damp cold climate over there..the people are so passionate about their poultry, we even toured the dutchess estate, she has a poultry set up looks nicer than my house..they make mistakes as well..again in ray connors book, when they were inducting australorps into their standard..queensland held out their vote unless they all agreed that the australorp retained a tighter feather..they did not want the looser feather of the orpington in england and there.

 

[aveca]

here is a champion blk orp on youtube, not sure who he belongs to cause tablet doesnt tell much.
that doesnt look like any award given stateside.

 

[ashandvine]

Breeding TYPE has always been the Brits' forte. Take a look at the dog world.....Corgis? They breed some very nice horses too. TYPE makes the breed. A mutt can be sound, but what is it?

A nice dog?

 

[bnjrob]

You are right Kathy. After about three years of breeding and God knows how many hours of reading and phone interviews of the masters befor they died I came up with this thinking. The genes are there and I as abreeder have to go after the ones I want and cull the ones that I dont want. Ralph Sturgeon made me think its like cooking fried fish after you get done in a few hours all the clean oil is on the top and the sedament is on the bottom. You take a big spoon and take the good oil and put it in a jar and when you get down to the sedament of rustic looking oil you take it out side and put it on the back fence and let it go. You can re -use the good oil for another batch of fish next time. In my breeding I kept the females that matured the fastest and layed befor the other females and took two of them and breed them the next year. Then that spring I would watch the chicks as they where in the brooder box for early fast development and would put magic markers color on thier down color to mark them and put that mark on a three by five index card. Latter in a month I would wing band them. I would watch thier groth and again out of say thirty females I would pick the best looking fastest growing birds and do this all over agian. I did this for five years in a row. Each year they would grow faster, lay thier eggs sooner and befor I knew it I had a strain of Reds that layed about 200 eggs in thier pullet year. They had gone from poor feather quality on thier backs to tight webing, they had incradable brick shape type and I had searched for the lost genes which I called the Mohawk gene. It was thier all the time since 1929 just waiting to be plucked by me.
Another example when I was doing research on Black Javas for a article I wrote for the Poutlry Press and the Java Club. There was a farm musium in Illinois or some where that had some of Urchs old Black Javas and one day he hatched a chick that was blusinsh red or something. Then some one else a year or so latter hatched a chick just like this one but the oppoist sex. They crossed the two togeather and the next thing they knew they had a new color of Javas. Not black or mottled but this color. I then found out in the ealry days of black Javas they had this color pattern but never got it in the stanard so the color pattern died and went to the way side. This color pattern was just laying there in these black javas for over 100 years just waiting to be found.

Funny you mentioning the Javas Bob. I've read the article you wrote for the Java Breeders group. I've been informed that not everyone believes that the Java has other colors. Apparently some think that it isn't a Java if it is any color but black and that someone must have bred another breed of chicken with a Java in order to get the colors that are showing up today.

In my research, I've found dissenting opinions about the history of the Java - its origins, etc. And I've also found these old books that discuss other colors of Javas. While mottleds and blacks are the only ones recognized by the APA, I figure that if people wrote about these other colors back in the 1800s and early 1900s - these other colors ARE a part of the Java bloodline history and not a recent (last 50-80 years) cross with another breed.

 

[bnjrob]

A nice dog?

I'm so tired it took me a minute to get it though.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Funny you mentioning the Javas Bob. I've read the article you wrote for the Java Breeders group. I've been informed that not everyone believes that the Java has other colors. Apparently some think that it isn't a Java if it is any color but black and that someone must have bred another breed of chicken with a Java in order to get the colors that are showing up today.

In my research, I've found dissenting opinions about the history of the Java - its origins, etc. And I've also found these old books that discuss other colors of Javas. While mottled and blacks are the only ones recognized by the APA, I figure that if people wrote about these other colors back in the 1800s and early 1900s - these other colors ARE a part of the Java bloodline history and not a recent (last 50-80 years) cross with another breed.

Some of the early articles I read said the old men in Rhode Island who crossed may lays onto Red Java females to get the shape of the Rhode Island Red. They also, the red color came from suchfe males. I dont know where I read this but they said at the time they got the black and mot ted into the standard but failed to get the other color in. I saw pictures of this bird and it turned me on. I am a Red guy so if I see something that gets me excited that's good. I could really care less what happens to the color pattern. I just hope you guys can get the correct type on your Javas like the Buck Eye folks did on their birds. You have a advantage in a solid colored bird. bob