Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Robert Blosl]

I read a good article in the summer issue of the Plymouth Rock Fanicers Club which I use to be the editor. It kind of hits on areas that I have been harping about EGG PRODUCTION and FEATHER QUALITY. Hope you like it and remember vigor, egg production, type then color. You will see things in your Heritage Large fowl that you never saw befor because they are hiden. That is how I found the Monawk gene in my large fowl reds about 25 years ago. Hope we can get this thread going again with old fashion large fowl from the old days. bob


From the Judges Aisle –January/February 2011
[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]"A NEW way of OLD judging for Standard Bred Poultry"
By Jim Adkins, International Poultry Judge [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]Recently I judged a poultry exhibit in Richmond, Virginia sponsored by the Virginia Poultry Breeders and I noticed that I am really beginning to see large fowl chickens and turkeys much differently. What has happened to our judging of poultry?
Let me explain. I have been judging poultry now for over twenty five years including all the experience I got at the county fairs when I was a teenager. I got my poultry judging license in 1994 from the Ameri-can Poultry Association; so it has been over seventeen years as a licensed judge. As I study old judging books and read about how poultry were judged back in the early days of exhibition, things have really changed! I believe for the worse.
I have had some very good mentors. I am indebted to many of them for all that they have taught me. Those mentors and some of the old timers who I listened to, talked about feather width, the head of the bird, the body type and how the bird stands. But, I never really heard why some of these things were so important. What difference do wide feathers make? Why is the skull of the bird so important?
First let’s think about the head of a chicken. Remember this – the head of a fowl tells you whether or not the bird will have width everywhere else. I would argue that it is the most important part of the bird. The head houses the nervous system. A narrow head means a smaller brain. The body capacity is con-trolled by the head. If the skull is narrow, the rest of the bird will be narrow. A nice wide skull of the chicken is a strong indicator of good growth potential. So, when we are judging a fowl, we always look at the head first; checking the comb, wattles, earlobes, but most importantly we need do examine the head for width. This is not because it just looks good or impresses us, it is because the quality of the head de-termines the quality of the bird.
Now what about feather width? I remember as a young man looking over the shoulders of well known, respected judges like Ken Cooke and Leonard Smith of Oregon, Vern Sorenson and Ray Vurduin of Washington, Wilbur Stauffer of Ohio and even the past president of the APA, Bill Holland of Idaho – I listened very closely when they were handling the birds. These guys were some of the very best! They always talked about feather width and quality. They opened the wings and talked about width of the pri-maries and secondary feathers. But, I never knew why?! The width of feather is so important on a bird. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]13 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]On a large fowl chicken the quality and width of the feather determines how much energy is spent on keeping itself warm. The wider the feather means better insulation. A fowl that is well insulated will use less energy to keep warm and put more energy into production. In these days with the cost of feed con-stantly on the rise, we need birds with good feather width so that the feed they eat is used for produc-tion of eggs and rate of growth. So, judges, exhibitors and breeders, feather width and quality is not just to look good, but it is to prove that the bird is insulated from the cold in the winter and the heat in the summer.
Following the judging of this show, I spent a couple days with my friend, Don Schrider. We were discuss-ing this very topic and he mentioned how we are judging by the [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]"feather outline" [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]of the bird! And we sometimes determine a lot by the [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]"popes nose" – [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]the tail of the bird! This is so true and we must get back to judging the overall production qualities of the bird. The feather outline of the bird does not take into consideration the carcass of the fowl. When you handle a good dual purpose chicken, like a Plymouth Rock or Dominique or a Jersey Giant, you should have plenty of good meat in your hand. Handling the bird enables us to determine if the bird has more than just a feathered outline. The best birds that I han-dled at this exhibit were the Jersey Giants and White Leghorns. The Jersey Giants were young but have great skeletal structure. I could tell that they were going to develop into wonderful dual purpose birds. They would someday have some very good meat on them. And then the white leghorns, they were awe-some! Good size, excellent body depth for egg production, and plenty of depth in the abdomen area. The champion female had superior feather quality. She seemed to be a true leghorn being bred for what is was originally intended for. Remember this, the [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]APA Standard of Perfection [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]is a production tool. It de-scribes for us everything we need to know about how the fowl should feel and look if we are breeding them properly. All breeds of poultry need to be bred for their original intent.
Let me share with you another area where we have failed when it comes to judging standard bred poul-try. Over the last twenty five years the winning large fowl Cornish have had short legs. These same birds have had problems reproducing. Have you ever wondered why? It is because the legs on the birds are too short. Recently I was talking with a very knowledgeable breeder and realized that we judges have been picking the best Cornish with too short of legs! Yes, the [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]Standard of Perfection [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]says that the Cornish should have a [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]"medium in length, well rounded leg" [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]not short! Why a moderately long leg? So that the bird is able to naturally reproduce. This is obviously very important. When we judges pick birds with short legs we are encouraging the breeders to breed those kinds of birds. Since I realized this, I have been looking at Cornish completely differently. I have had to retrain my eyes. We all must do the same.
I really believe a huge part of the decline of large fowl chickens in North America is because we no longer pay attention to production qualities such as these that I have mentioned. We no longer care about whether the bird produces high egg production or has a carcass that is impressive on the dinner table. We really must look beyond the [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]"feather outline" [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]and see that the birds have all the qualities that the breed was originally bred for. A dual purpose chicken should be a high quality egg producer and should also have an impressive body of meat. Otherwise why would you want to raise a bird that eats so much and does nothing else for you?
I recommend that you read, [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]Judging Poultry for Production [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Cambria,Cambria][FONT=Cambria,Cambria]by Rice, Hall and Marble. This book was pub-lished in 1930. It is a wonderful book on judging poultry with production in mind. We have to get back to the judging poultry the way that our forefathers judged. Production was very important. I am not sure that it means anything these days. Let’s join forces and start judging a NEW way by doing it the OLD way. I believe it is critical if we are going to save these large birds from extinction. Maybe you will see them a little differently the next time you walk down the aisle of a poultry show. [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[NotAFarm]

Bob, Thank you for posting this article. Productive birds are the only way to save many of the Heritage Breeds. I hope that many APA judges heed his advice.



Quote: I am putting this on a poster board and putting in my coop. When I look at my New Hampshires, I will keep this priority list in mind.

 

[aveca]

a great article..the sum of the parts..wonderful read , thanks for sharing..love to read more like this..i think when people left the farms for the work force..lot of the art and understanding of poultry keeping. the why they did it that way was lost..

 

[cherylcohen]

I read a good article in the summer issue of the Plymouth Rock Fanicers Club which I use to be the editor. It kind of hits on areas that I have been harping about EGG PRODUCTION and FEATHER QUALITY. Hope you like it and remember vigor, egg production, type then color. You will see things in your Heritage Large fowl that you never saw befor because they are hidden. That is how I found the Monawk gene in my large fowl reds about 25 years ago. Hope we can get this thread going again with old fashion large fowl from the old days. bob

GREAT post thanks

 

[Robert Blosl]

To spice up this tread and kick the can down the hill some I got a good email last night from a guy who read my web site and the article on Rotational Line breeding. He asked me if I ever heard or used the method called Roller Line Breeding. I thought for a moment after I Go ogled the subject and read a article which I have highlighted in blue. I said it looks like the chart that I K Fletch made about 100 years ago. I never known one person who ever used it it makes you dizzy as you go down the years and the chart. Then I thought about it last night and again this moarning and said heck that is what I call Judicious In Breeding and I have a chart some where in my computer but you just breed back to the hen each year for four years to her best son and the best pullet or pullets back to the sire for four years. Then after that year you bail out and get new breeders and cross a new male to a pullet and a new hen to a great cockerel and hammer away for four more years. Here is how I got the idea.

One of my mentors was also a mentor for Jim Atkins who wrote the good article on Judging above. One week Vern Sorneson was going to Montana to buy a heard of Nubian Goats and wanted me to milk four of his old does while he was gone in the evenings. I said to Vern what do I do with the milk after I milk the goats?

He said watch this let the goat drink the milk you got out of her and sure enough in 45 seconds it was in her belly. Vern laughed and said. Sooner or latter its going to be good dont you think. I said how long have you been doing this and he said for years. It dont hurt them and if I need milk or she has a baby we will give it to them.

So over the years I thought about the goat and the milk and what would happen if I had a killer hen with great type and color and mated her son back to her for three or four years I should end up with chicks that look just like her or a country method of Cloning a chicken by inbreeding. Have you heard of such a thing?

Something to read during the heat of the summer. Sent five culls down the road today need to make room for the better birds. Hate to do it but that is breeding. Have a nice Wends day. Bob

Here below is my email to the guy who wrote me.

Good Mourning:
Subject: Roller Line Breeding: ( http://www.ultimatefowl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Line_Breeding )

First Generation Hen Cock ½ hen ½ cock
Second Generation Hen to son Cock to daughter ¾ hen ¾ cock
Third Generation Hen to grandson Cock to granddaughter 7/8 hen 7/8 cock
Fourth Generation Hen to grandson Cock to granddaughter 15/16 hen 15/16 cock
Now in the 5th generation you breed the 15/16 hen to the 15/16 cock.

I was reading this last night then I said to myself I think that is what I am doing right now.
Take a cock bird one year old mate him to a hen one year old.
you then have half cock and half hen or 50%
2.Take the pullet or daughter and mate back to the cock bird. Then mate the cockerel her son back to the hen
3. Then you take the pullet of this mating and mate back to the male again. Mate the best cockerel back to the hen.
4. Take the best pullet and mate it back to the cock bird. Mate the best cockerel back to the hen.
5. You have a choice and you can mate the best cockerel back to the best pullet on the female side OR you can take a male from another mating say mating B and mate him to the best pullet from the A mating. Take the best cockerel from the A mating and mate him to the best pullet in the B mating.

If you have a A mating, a B mating you would have two adult birds production about 30 chicks. You could even go further and have a C mating and do the same thing. Then in four years you could swap birds from the C mating to the A or B mating. Go another step further you could get a pair of birds from a partner who lives 500 miles away who has the same blood line as yours. You would not be out crossing to some one else's blood line but the major line such as in the Mohawk or Mrs. Donald Donaldson – E W Reese Jr. line of Georgia in large fowl Rhode Island Reds.


How does that sound. I am doing that right now in my white Plymouth rocks and buff Brahma bantams. There is a down side however, if you loose one of the older breeders to accident or illness or they drop dead during the heat of the summer the program comes to a halt. The number on trait you must select in this method is vigor. I once read in the 1930’s a fellow inbreed White Plymouth Rock large fowl like this for 15 years and never lost his vigor or egg production. This method needs to be done by a experience person, rookies may find them selves choosing a bird for looks and not vigor and then paint themselves into a corner. Most of the time that is what happens or they coward out and get stupid and get a new bird from a strain in California or Minnesota and the mix up the gene pool and have nothing but a mess that would take a experience breeder





Does that sound much like what you know of the Roller method? Let me know. bob

 

[Lacy Blues]

Thank you Bob for those two articles. Very good.

I have a question for all you judges and long time breeders out there... I have heard people say that they don't use their breeders to show or their show birds to breed.

Can someone explain this to me? I asked one other judge several years ago and didn't get a very good answer... so why would you not show your breeder? And if you have a bird good enough to compete at a show (and possibly win) why in heaven's name would you not propagate his/her genes?

 

[Lacy Blues]

On another note... the article that you (Bob) provided a link to above regarding the roller method of mating (by Charles Everett) he mentioned that when the old cockers came upon a mating that produced exceptional offspring, they would repeatedly make that mating.

I have a pair of birds that I crossed this spring (blue andalusians) and though I got blacks and splashes as well as blues, ALL of the blues show exceptional lacing and I'm really excited about them. You can't really tell with blacks and splashes but I think basing their qualities on what you CAN see in the blue offspring would make them pretty valuable as breeders (since I can't show them). So, the thing is this: the offspring surpass the parents. Do I keep the parents and make more or do I replace them with the better offspring? Or do I employ this roller method with those parents and their offspring? Of course I know I have to let them grow up before I can see what I really have, as far as type, size, temperament etc., so I have time to think about it.

 

[3riverschick]

 

[fowlman01]

Thank you Bob for those two articles. Very good.

I have a question for all you judges and long time breeders out there... I have heard people say that they don't use their breeders to show or their show birds to breed.

Can someone explain this to me? I asked one other judge several years ago and didn't get a very good answer... so why would you not show your breeder? And if you have a bird good enough to compete at a show (and possibly win) why in heaven's name would you not propagate his/her genes?

Yes, I have heard that as well, but I don't believe everything I read about chickens. Generally my breeder birds may or may not do well in a show. I do a lot of compensation breeding when I am fighting a problem, so I may have one with a low tail and one with a high tail to try to hit it right on with some of the offspring.
Those birds would not do well in a show as they have either a tail to high or a tail to low. In my stronger breeds I show breeder birds only occasionally. Good breeders are very valuable and there is a risk showing....small but never the less there is a risk, so I may not want to take that risk to just do well in one show.....but lose the factory. We show about 50 birds at each show here in CA, so I have to keep a lot of show birds. In our strongest breeds the birds pretty much look alike, so there is no reason to show a breeder.

When I first started I showed breeders because that was ll that I had. If I had an outstanding bird now and it was an important show, I would probably show a breeder bird if I thought it would win. I would only show it once though. Constant showing is hard on the birds and you don't want worn out breeders.

It is an individual decision.

RE: the breeder question.I don't have a reason for this, maybe Bob does, but many times I have found that while a certain mating gave very good results one year the same mating does not always have the same good results the following year. I have no way to explain this, but this has been my experience.

Walt

 

[snowbird]

Walt, I think you know that I started out in a Gamefowl family . The Gamefowl people that I knew would mark every chick that was hatched. If a certain Male -female mating nicked as they say, then those two breeders would be bred together until they died. My father was well known over the South and Midwest.