Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Chris09]

Care to share, Bob? I have been looking at that chart for years and still don't understand it!
All the analyzes of it I have read as just as confusing as the chart.
Best,
Karen
-----------------------------------

This might help-

THREE WAYS OF IN-BREEDING.
The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes © 1919
" In-breeding," says Mr. Harry R. Lewis" commonly means
the mating of individuals related for one generation. In-and-in
breeding indicates those showing a longer period and closer degree
of relationship. Three ways of in-breeding are:--

In-breeding chart showing distribution of inherited 'characters. The black
denotes the blood lines of the male and the white those of the female. The
solid black lines show that a male has been chosen from the group from
which they start and the dotted lines a female
X-Male. O-Female.

1. Breeding sire and daughter which produces ¼
blood like the mother.
2. Breeding son and mother which produces progeny
with ¾ blood of the mother.
3. Breeding brother and sister which gives progeny with
blood lines from both sire and dam in equal proportions.
The latter (No. 3) is the mating referred to above as
undesirable. It is often adopted by breeders of both
Fancy stock and heavy egg-producers, but it must
not be over done. He must be sure of the vigour of
the parent stock, else this fault will be intensified in
the progeny.

Chris

 

[galanie]

Those charts make a ton more sense when you realize that solid lines = males and dotted lines = females. For instance in the above chart when you follow the lines this way you realize that the cockerel is being mated to his daughter in year two and his granddaughter in year three. Same for the Hen. Son in year 2 and grandson in year 3. Even if you don't read what is said under the chart. Which I didn't at first. He says the same thing only in a more clear and concise way.

Chart 3 that Bob Blosl posted is essentially identical in content, it just goes farther.

Some of us are more visual and "see" things in our minds that way. Others aren't. If you're the type the draws a map to let you know how to get somewhere, you're visual. If you'd rather write "Turn left on Oak Ave. then right on Main" then you aren't and the charts won't make as much sense.

 

[Robert Blosl]

The other methods are line breeding methods that I K Feltch wrote about 100 years ago. It has taken me 30 years to figure out what he was trying to get across.
Bob
======================
Care to share, Bob? I have been looking at that chart for years and still don't understand it!

All the analyzes of it I have read as just as confusing as the chart.

Best,
Karen
-----------------------------------

I interviewed about a year ago a very good breeder and he has a friend who is a super good bantam breeder. He told me if his friend has a female that is a killer that won Grand Champion of the show with type just out of this world he will mate the best two sons back to this hen and then pick which son produced the best total off spring in pullets as well as cockerels. He then will pick two of the best sons from that matting and mate it back to the hen again and raise say 20 to 25 chicks from this old hen. He does this for say four years. This is kind of what the Fletch chart does it mates the best son to the dam and the best pullet to her sire or the first pair birds. Then on the fourth or fifth year if you are lucky and no buddy dies you cross one bird from the right and one to the left and repeat this again. In the first chart it shows how you do this so just think of having a pen of White Plymouth Rock Large fowl you do this each year then you go up to the house where you have another pen and bring saw a top notch female down to the back pen and mate it to the very best cockerel. Then repeat this same process for four more years. I would have a total of two to three breeders depending how I figure out what to do. When you have just one parent and they get a year older each year you have to plan on a death. So if it happens you may have to redo the plan with a new bird. I also have Mr. Weaver in Tenn who has my line and a fellow in Canada who has my White Rock Line. I could always get a new bird from them and cross in and start over. That is my safety valve BUDDY plan. Can not do this alone you should have a partner like I have in Arkansas who raises my Rhode Island Red Bantams.

Now as I write this I ask my self how will I line breed these three Mottled Javas when I get them. I take the only male and mate him to each female and have each female in a five by five pen and rotate the male each day to the new pen. Each egg is hatched in a separate wooden hatch er and then toe punched and later wing banded. Then I take the best son of the hen one and mate to hen two and the best son from hen two and mate to hen one. I will take the best two other pullets and mate them to their sire and start another breeding pen. This will give me three new lines or three family's. Next thing I got to do is find me someone who lives in Texas or East Georgia and get them a start of say two pair and let them line breed them at a distance of about five hundred miles or more from me. Then say in four years we swap ten started chicks and then raise them up and start all over again with new fresh birds mated from their stock and my stock.

Hopefully, if I cull for vigor first type second and then color third I will be able to restart this old line of Mot led Javas.

Now as I painted this picture to you on how I have a plan with my 30 year old line of White Plymouth Rock large fowl and the Dr. McGraws old Mottled Javas what could you do with what you got.

Can you take a pen and a piece of paper and make a box for pen one and a box for pen two and figure out how you would go. The secret to being a good breeder that I learned is you have to have VISION. You got to ask your self every day WHAT IF I DID THIS. Some may say this Rhode Island Red pullet has very little black markings on her wing she is a cull. But old time breeders I interviewed say you are wrong. She is a $500. pullet. You keep these females around when you get a good male who is overloaded in the wing with black markings. You mate him to her then there best pullet with less black markings back to the male and then she kind of cleans the wings on the future generations. On the female side you take a male very much like Bobby in North Carolina or Matt 1616 her in my back yard in Alabama and mate these super star males with say over loaded wings back to her for two to three years. Mrs. Donaldson use to say these birds help to ABSORB the over abundance of black in the other mate.

Remember I told you That Mr. Kansas told me to Go Slow, Go Small and GO DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. Well I think this is bringing you back to the middle by breeding such a female.

In regards to the person who asked what do I do to try not to screw up a old line of Heritage Birds such as this old LINE of Mottled Javas. I just painted a picture for you. I could do this with any breed of Fowl. Just Go Slow, Go Small and Think into the Future with Vision. Many people do not or can not be breeders of Live Stock because they were not born with the Vision trait. My wife goes into a store and touches everything she walks buy. I look at it with Vision and wonder what it would look like on a person. Some are what we call Auditory minded. They say when you talk to them Could you run that by me one more time and kind of TILT there head to the side to listen. I remember one time in school my teacher asked one of my friends what was the capital of Alabama and he looked up at the ceiling and after about 20 seconds said Montgomery. Then She said what is the capt ital of Oregon he did it again and he said Salem. Latter after class and we where out side playing I asked him why he looked up at the ceiling he said I could visualize the map of the United States I then could see the state and then the Capital of it. I latter asked the teacher if she saw what my friend did she said yes isn't it something. I said why does he do this and Martha looks down and touches her dress when you ask a question. She said she is a feeler or .Kinesthetic.

http://personalityjunkie.com/01/learning-styles-personality-type-visual-auditory-kinesthetic/

My friend is a Visual and other kids are Auditory. I latter studied this in sales and found if you know what the person is or his wife when you are making your presentation you can get them to say yes at the end. So in breeding chickens it helps if you have this God given gift. Matt 1616 is always dreaming up new mat tings in his head and has a eye for type like I have not seen in years. He would make a great judge some day. I am sure Walt and New York Reds have the same gift. That's why they are both master breeders.

So that's the secret of the day. One thing you can tell people when I am gone to the big chicken show in the sky is he did not take his secrets with him.

So all you people out there lets Visualize how we can save as many strains or lines of large fowl from going extinct in the next five years. Lets have a plan and get you a partner you can trust and lets do it. bob

 

[3riverschick]

Those charts make a ton more sense when you realize that solid lines = males and dotted lines = females. For instance in the above chart when you follow the lines this way you realize that the cockerel is being mated to his daughter in year two and his granddaughter in year three. Same for the Hen. Son in year 2 and grandson in year 3. Even if you don't read what is said under the chart. Which I didn't at first. He says the same thing only in a more clear and concise way.
Chart 3 that Bob Blosl posted is essentially identical in content, it just goes farther.
Some of us are more visual and "see" things in our minds that way. Others aren't. If you're the type the draws a map to let you know how to get somewhere, you're visual. If you'd rather write "Turn left on Oak Ave. then right on Main" then you aren't and the charts won't make as much sense.

Hi galanie,
I am extremely visual, but not with mathematics. It's an interesing conundrum. Thanks so much for this explanation. I am used to classic horizontal family tree pedigrees from the dog world. These vertical breeding plans are harder to understand. I did take one of them and make a family tree pedigree out of it. Tho, unless one is trap nesting or using pie chart pedigrees like Lineage 1.0 uses, to illustrate Percentage of Line Inheritance, the family tree thing is less revealing. Oh well, we could talk about methods of mating all day long, but if the culling isn't selective, it doesn't matter.
Best,
Karen

 

[galanie]

Those charts make a ton more sense when you realize that solid lines = males and dotted lines = females. For instance in the above chart when you follow the lines this way you realize that the cockerel is being mated to his daughter in year two and his granddaughter in year three. Same for the Hen. Son in year 2 and grandson in year 3. Even if you don't read what is said under the chart. Which I didn't at first. He says the same thing only in a more clear and concise way.

Chart 3 that Bob Blosl posted is essentially identical in content, it just goes farther.

Some of us are more visual and "see" things in our minds that way. Others aren't. If you're the type the draws a map to let you know how to get somewhere, you're visual. If you'd rather write "Turn left on Oak Ave. then right on Main" then you aren't and the charts won't make as much sense.

Hi galanie,
 I am extremely visual, but not with mathematics. It's an interesing conundrum. Thanks so much for this explanation. I am used to classic horizontal  family tree pedigrees from the dog world. These vertical breeding plans are harder to understand. I did take one of them and make a family tree pedigree out of it. Tho, unless one is trap nesting or using pie chart pedigrees like Lineage 1.0 uses, to illustrate Percentage of Line Inheritance,  the family tree thing is less revealing. Oh well, we could talk about methods of mating all day long, but if the culling isn't selective, it doesn't matter.
 Best,
 Karen

I actually do trap nest when I'm collecting eggs for hatching. I want to know exactly which hen every egg comes from. When not collecting, I just take the doors to the trap nests off.

 

[capayvalleychick]

Can you take a pen and a piece of paper and make a box for pen one and a box for pen two and figure out how you would go. The secret to being a good breeder that I learned is you have to have VISION. You got to ask your self every day WHAT IF I DID THIS. Some may say this Rhode Island Red pullet has very little black markings on her wing she is a cull. But old time breeders I interviewed say you are wrong. She is a $500. pullet. You keep these females around when you get a good male who is overloaded in the wing with black markings. You mate him to her then there best pullet with less black markings back to the male and then she kind of cleans the wings on the future generations. On the female side you take a male very much like Bobby in North Carolina or Matt 1616 her in my back yard in Alabama and mate these super star males with say over loaded wings back to her for two to three years. Mrs. Donaldson use to say these birds help to ABSORB the over abundance of black in the other mate.

Reading all these posts is making my head hurt. Poultry breeding is so COMPLICATED.

Without having known any of these methods, I've been doing a sort of modified Spiral breeding with only 2 sires. I have the problem of overall needing to improve type- plus all my birds have some sort of defect.

If I choose to go by one of the breeding methods, I'm afraid that I may double up on birds with the same defects and then never be able to get rid of those faults.

So... I'm assuming that I should disregard any specific breeding method at this point. ? Instead, I should do more like what Bob describes above. Breed pairs that will correct the faults. For example, breed the high tailed female only to the male with the lowest tail, no matter which line/sire they are from. ???

 

[unkadan]

I actually do trap nest when I'm collecting eggs for hatching. I want to know exactly which hen every egg comes from. When not collecting, I just take the doors to the trap nests off.

Could you post some pics of your trap nests? and any info you could share would be appreciated

thanks

 

[fowlman01]

Could you post some pics of your trap nests? and any info you could share would be appreciated

thanks

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/400344/heritage-large-fowl-thread/7610#post_9995170

The easiest way to make a trap nest is to use a pigeon trap. It is just a frame with moving rods that allow the bird to only go in one direction. You can find them at Foy's pigeon supply.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/traps-and-bobs/1198-oriental-bob-only



Walt

 

[countrygoddess]

It's 42 F right now and they are outside fiddling around in their new coop/attached run. I opened everything (the ventilation is at full and so are the "chicken doors" to the outside run and the actual coop. They already know how to get out and in, and have chosen to stay outside in the chilly weather and chase each other when they find something interesting on the ground (the only thing I see is grass). Soo, since it's 42 and they're voluntarily open to the elements instead of inside the coop - I think they'll be just fine at night when it's 35 =) Sometimes I have to wonder if keeping chickens out of the cold until they're 6-8 weeks does more harm than good. These ones were living at 60 degrees from week 3 onward and never did they act like they were remotely cold.

Thanks again for the advice and help...looks like they're having the time of their lives out there. BRrrrr.

It's in the 20's here and my birds are happily out and about. =)

 

[Marengoite]

As you may or may not be aware, there are also two Buckeye groups of breeders and we don't mix much (and don't care for one another too much although there is mutual respect). I cannot help believe that this condition, while ridiculed early on by people looking in deciding whether to take on Buckeyes, is probably healthy for the breed's longevity. What I mean is that you have these two distinct populations of Buckeyes, both moving forward and both vastly improving, in different ways, but better for the breed because of the genetic diversity it represents.

Hey, Chris, sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you face-to-face at the ON this year. Wasn't able to spend the whole day there.

I agree with Chris that there are two clubs - The American Buckeye Poultry Club of which he is a member and the American Buckeye Club. I would also agree that both clubs operate under different philosophies and that there has been a certain amount of, shall we say, friction between individual members within the respective groups.

Where I would differ with Chris is that they represent two distinct populations of Buckeyes. I would say that on the face of it, his assessment is correct and that the clubs represent differing interpretations of the SOP. But what Chris didn't mention is that there are people like me who don't have a dog in this fight. We are preservationists who are content to supply show folks with Buckeyes even though we don't campaign ourselves. Personally, I'm interested in maintaining a historic breed as close to the founder's original intent as possible. If that wins shows, then that's fine, but if it doesn't I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Because of that, I'm more likely to look for the best stock regardless of source or club affiliation. I do tend to favor birds from around here, but that's largely because I can drive around the state and see what they look like. This is also why I went to the ON - to see what other folks have.

Nor was I the only one who was willing to leave the fighting up to individuals rather than clubs. I believe the ABPC awarded an ABC member's child a youth trophy and I think there are plenty of other instances where members of both clubs get along. If I'm not mistaken, you've been invited by ABC members to show in their club so as well, Chris. So bottom line, I believe, as you state, that two breed clubs are ultimately good for the breed. While it may appear confusing to some, it need not be confrontational. And I would like to think that many of us are beyond that point.

That being said, I would encourage anyone to visit both clubs, see what they have to offer, and pick birds that most closely meet the goals you have of your breeding program.