Breed Stewards Thread

[fowlman01]

Yeah, Showing is very shallow.
- Seramas are judged by size. The smaller the better. So to win the ribbon, you have to breed the smallest, most typey specimens. That's how they word it to make it sound positive. Here's how it's said practically: 'So to win the ribbon, you have to breed from the tiniest birds, lacking good utility, and being so small that they can freeze solid in 12 seconds at -10 C.'
Showing doesn't sound so apealling anymore...

I'm sorry, but that is only your opinion and it is not based on any facts as far as I can see. People write all kinds of strange things on this site without really knowing what they are talking about.

Have you ever shown a bird? Have you ever been to a show and what do you think the purpose of showing really is? Why did the Dept of Defense write a book about showing during the second World War if it had no value.


BTW: where in the world did you get your Serama info? Not too many people know the description of the Serama since it is not recognized by the APA.

Walt

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
Why is "Showing very shallow?" There are many reasons people show their birds. For me, I like exposing my breed to the public as it gets others interested in the breed. Secondly, I get to meet personally other breeders, learn from them and share my knowledge with them (it is more personal than just online because I get to see their birds live -- a lot different than a picture - I can only discern so much from a picture). Third, whether or not I agree, if I want, I get other's opinions of my birds so that I can see past my barn blinders when it comes to my own birds and breeding tendencies. I can also better compare my birds with others of the same breed. I like the feedback from the judges, who have their own takes and interpretations of the breed (i.e. the feedback is helpful). I do not see anything shallow about it. Even if I am not showing, I like to go and look at all the birds.

For the Juniors, it is a wonderful experience. The kids are great. At my last show, there was a little boy showing his ducks and goose. I was wishing I had a kid like that -- he was so responsible, taking good care of his birds and handling them like a pro. His birds were real tame. The little boy was only about 10- 12 years old -- one of his ducks, a Saxony, was the Jr. Champion. His parents must be real proud of him. You must have never been to a show.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

I'm sorry, but that is only your opinion and it is not based on any facts as far as I can see. People write all kinds of strange things on this site without really knowing what they are talking about.

Have you ever shown a bird? Have you ever been to a show and what do you think the purpose of showing really is? Why did the Dept of Defense write a book about showing during the second World War if it had no value.


BTW: where in the world did you get your Serama info? Not too many people know the description of the Serama since it is not recognized by the APA.

Walt

Yes, I've shown birds, and won prizes, I've been to several different shows, and 1 I've been attending for about 6 years.

Serama info: Six Feather Seramas (which is defunct now). Oh, and White Seramas are recognised nowadays.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

Why is "Showing very shallow?" There are many reasons people show their birds. For me, I like exposing my breed to the public as it gets others interested in the breed. Secondly, I get to meet personally other breeders, learn from them and share my knowledge with them (it is more personal than just online because I get to see their birds live -- a lot different than a picture - I can only discern so much from a picture). Third, whether or not I agree, if I want, I get other's opinions of my birds so that I can see past my barn blinders when it comes to my own birds and breeding tendencies. I can also better compare my birds with others of the same breed. I like the feedback from the judges, who have their own takes and interpretations of the breed (i.e. the feedback is helpful). I do not see anything shallow about it. Even if I am not showing, I like to go and look at all the birds.

For the Juniors, it is a wonderful experience. The kids are great. At my last show, there was a little boy showing his ducks and goose. I was wishing I had a kid like that -- he was so responsible, taking good care of his birds and handling them like a pro. His birds were real tame. The little boy was only about 10- 12 years old -- one of his ducks, a Saxony, was the Jr. Champion. His parents must be real proud of him. You must have never been to a show.

I do apologize for that... Yes, showing can mean alot to people. But what I was considering was the birds. All those heartwarming experiences, no they are far from shallow. But do they benefit the quality of the birds. Not show quality. True inner quality. Intellegence. Genetic diversity. Hardiness. Utility. None of that matters in the cages. That's what I meant. I do apologize if I've offended anyone.

 

[fowlman01]

Yes, I've shown birds, and won prizes, I've been to several different shows, and 1 I've been attending for about 6 years.

Serama info: Six Feather Seramas (which is defunct now). Oh, and White Seramas are recognised nowadays.

Not by the APA. The APA does not recognize any color Serama.

I would like to know why showing is shallow too..it could be described as a lot of things......but shallow? That sounds more like a personal judgement and an inaccurate statement.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I do apologize for that... Yes, showing can mean alot to people. But what I was considering was the birds. All those heartwarming experiences, no they are far from shallow. But do they benefit the quality of the birds. Not show quality. True inner quality. Intellegence. Genetic diversity. Hardiness. Utility. None of that matters in the cages. That's what I meant. I do apologize if I've offended anyone.

While you say you have shown birds, you do not seem to know why shows exist. Why would a state like OK require every school district to have a poultry show or they would lose their school funding during WWII? There is a lot more to showing than you seem to understand. It's not for everyone and not necessary to enjoy birds. If you aren't into it, just say so and try not run down the people that enjoy it. There is a reason for shows other than ribbons and I believe that has been pointed out to you from someone else in another thread. One of the reasons is to keep the old breeds going. We would not have the diversity of breeds preserved that we have now without poultry shows.

Walt

 

[Stacykins]

I definitely support hardier birds. It seems that too many people coddle their livestock. Like when I read about people fretting over their chickens in the South and Florida, and then adding heat lamps for adult chickens. It is ridiculous. I am not saying we shouldn't care for them, but we should also remember that chickens and whatnot have been kept for thousands of years with no heat lamps for when the temperature dips a few degrees colder.

Stewardship pt.1: Hardiness
Some of the ways you can help encourage hardiness and vitality are:
A) Unheated, unlighted coop. Heated coops lower hardiness greatly, as the birds do not require there hardiness to keep alive, therefore, it is difficult to select the most hardy from the least hardy. Lighting coops in the winter over true daylight hours to mimic spring, while it helps produce eggs, can cause fertility problems by stretching the reproductive resources of the birds.
B) Patience. Most chickens now available seem to produce well for a year or too, then molt and hardly produce at all. These chickens also seem to have shorter life spans. There is a specific reason for this, although I won't get into that as it has to do with the hen's reproductive setup and is confusing. But this can be solved by breeding only the roosters and hens that are still keeping the brooder full at 3 or 4 years old. This helps with increasing fertility and longevity.
I have alot more ideas, but if anyone else out there has ideas, I'd certainly like to here. That's why the thread is hear. To assist and educate.

My birds are kept without artificial heat and light, and I will stay that way. My coop is inconvenient to string power to in the first place. And my birds are thriving! In fact, they are upset if I am late letting them out to free range in the snow and ice! My yooper chickens fear no cold or inclement weather!

Stewardship pt. 2: Intellegence
Some of the ways you can help a smarter chicken be created are:
A) Broody hens. A hen knows far better than a computer how to hatch an egg. And as she raises the babies, she imparts on them everything there is to know about 'Chickendom', and this makes the chicks even smarter. Something a box with a lamp certainly can't do! The chicken circle of life was created to be continuous, not continuously broken. That is why ready-to-lay pullets from hatcheries often seem more stupid than any other chickens you've seen!
B) No Fences. Okay. I know some situations require fencing, but I find a big, friendly, used-to-poultry guard dog is a thousand times more valuable than a roll of poultry netting. When the chickens have to sort out your land's natural resoures for food, they begin to get smarter as they eventually will know what to look for, where exactly to find it, etc. If there is a healthy water resource nearby, I suggest not providing them with water so long as they can access this supply (provide for them in winter, etc.). (This isn't important, but my chooks prefer alsike clover and alfalfa over everything else, so they spend alot of time looking for these plants, which they can identify from a suprising distance. They also steal water from our heifer's waterbowl. I basically let them out in the morning, and close them up at night. They are healtier than alot of birds that have been raised differently, although, like I said, some who read this can do nothing about there situation.)

I can't wait to test my first broody's ability to raise chicks. I like the control of an incubator during incubation, but I want her to take over the actual raising once they hatch. And she can teach the chicks what she knows, rather than them having to figure it out once they are turned loose with the flock. My flock free range and thus far, I've had no losses. They know to duck for cover if anything, be it a sparrow, crow, or bald eagle flies overhead. I do the same thing, let them out in the morning, and close them up at night.

Stewardship pt. 3: Immunity
This is slightly different than hardiness, in that, this involves disease, rather than climate:
A) Natural resources. I cannot stress how much I dislike medicated feed. Most formulated feed includes things like Soy that are not good for the birds long term health, and medicine or chemicals that are specific to the type of bird specified in the feed. Right from the beginning, to the day they die, I do all I can to make sure my birds don't get this kind of degrading food. I like natural resources on my land, and crack corn. You want birds that can survive disease on their own, not birds stuffed full of good ol' flavin-bensinate-dio-carbine or whatever that prevents you from knowing which birds to cull. You see, in any case of influence, you want to set your situation up so you know who to cull.
B) Vacination. No. Just no. This is for the same reason as above, but, even more important. Those who sell you vaccinated chicks are selling you chicks which might grow up to be birds you should-have-culled. But of course, there heavily medicated, so they sure seem immune. And then how would you ever find out how truely immune it is, until you breed it and it's chicks are awful?...

I personally use a commercial food as the base of my flock's diet. I just don't have the resources to make my own feed. But during the spring, summer, and fall, they are constantly eating green goodies, insects, and whatever they find as they free range. They eat very little feed even now, without the boon of growing things, actually. Araucanas are known for being foraging experts and light eaters, they are efficient chickens.

No vaccinations here, either, for the birds at least. And disease hasn't been an issue. Clean water and food, and a clean coop are the best disease preventatives out there.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

While you say you have shown birds, you do not seem to know why shows exist. Why would a state like OK require every school district to have a poultry show or they would lose their school funding during WWII? There is a lot more to showing than you seem to understand. It's not for everyone and not necessary to enjoy birds. If you aren't into it, just say so and try not run down the people that enjoy it. There is a reason for shows other than ribbons and I believe that has been pointed out to you from someone else in another thread. One of the reasons is to keep the old breeds going. We would not have the diversity of breeds preserved that we have now without poultry shows.

Walt

I'm not trying to run people down. This thread was meant as a warning, like I said on that other thread, against crossing very serious boundaries to achieve an essentially lesser goal, which I do see happening alot. And it mostly happens with showing. I'm not rying to run people down, or flame or rant, or protest against the SOP and showing, but people often do ridiculous things to get Standard-conforming birds fast, without taking neccesary steps in advance. The people I can think of in question seem to take no remote thought of hardiness, utility etc. when they see a good show bird in their flock. So they breed from it, and send the hardy, vigorous, intellegent bird to the freezer. I am not trying to demean these people, but it should be a warning for other breeders.
Have we talked about stringmen, and the less honest either? No. And that's another reason showing is shallow. Sometimes bird's that win a blue ribbon for best of breed aren't even a breed. The only reason those birds would win is because they look like what they are being made out to be. Also, birds that have no other breed in their heritage are considered 'not' part of that breed, if they have the wrong body type or too many feathers of this sort or something like that. This make's origination very difficult if I might add.

 

[warbirds]

ABA does recognize Seramas.....................accepted in early 2011 with more to come...............geez thought this thread was going to PROMOTE "breed preservation"........which means you do what needs to be done
to promote a breed, continue a breed, get youngsters interested in a breed........perpetuate a breed responsibly....................with the negative comments of the OP.................seems that is not at all really possible...................showing gets the breed out there.............breeders work their collective "uh huh's" off to the bone year after year to meet the SOP..........just to keep their precious breed in front of the public..............

So very disappointed here, as an OT'er.....................thanks for trying but maybe somebody needs to get their act together before projecting the wrong image to those doing what needs to be done to serve and protect.................

Oh, yeah, forgot to add................40+ years with rare birds of all ilk, not just poultry.............

 

[fowlman01]

I'm not trying to run people down. This thread was meant as a warning, like I said on that other thread, against crossing very serious boundaries to achieve an essentially lesser goal, which I do see happening alot. And it mostly happens with showing. I'm not rying to run people down, or flame or rant, or protest against the SOP and showing, but people often do ridiculous things to get Standard-conforming birds fast, without taking neccesary steps in advance. The people I can think of in question seem to take no remote thought of hardiness, utility etc. when they see a good show bird in their flock. So they breed from it, and send the hardy, vigorous, intellegent bird to the freezer. I am not trying to demean these people, but it should be a warning for other breeders.
Have we talked about stringmen, and the less honest either? No. And that's another reason showing is shallow. Sometimes bird's that win a blue ribbon for best of breed aren't even a breed. The only reason those birds would win is because they look like what they are being made out to be. Also, birds that have no other breed in their heritage are considered 'not' part of that breed, if they have the wrong body type or too many feathers of this sort or something like that. This make's origination very difficult if I might add.

You have posted so much misinformation I don't know where to start. I show birds......my birds average life is around 10-12 years.......average. I would put them in the excellent status of all your points. I don't medicate or use any feed with medication in it. My birds are bulletproof for the most part. My medicine cabinet contains an ax. I don't have a freezer full of culls. Your show info seems to have been gleened from what you read on here. This place is really not typical of people who are serious about showing or breeding to SOP Standards. People do all kiinds of wierd breeding things here on BYC. None of that has anything to do with serious poultry showing.

Thanks for "Warning" all the breeders here......maybe it would be best to "warn" the people who are bragging about all these strange management practices here on BYC and refrain from "bashing" the APA and SOP. You did use "bashing" didn't you?

I know that the Seramas are recognized by the ABA. Anyone who knows birds knows that the Serama is an ornamental bird and would never use it as a comparison to a utility birds. The other interesting thing you do not seem to know is that the Serama actually takes a good bit of time to judge. It requires that the bird be put into a "station" and also judged on a table.

I am suspect of motives when people "bash" anything.

Walt