Breeder has asked us not to neuter pup -- advice please?

[pardygwyn]

My experience within the rough collie breed hasn't been so much that they've lost their instincts, but that their instincts have become unpredictable across the breed due to not being selected for. So you'll have a litter where some pups can herd, others will run stock all day, and others are pretty lawn ornaments. Unfortunately, a lot of the "herding instinct testing" photos I've seen look suspiciously like stock-running. In my opinion, a loose-eyed herding dog should approach the stock calmly and authoritatively, only running and showing teeth when the stock misbehave, NOT when they're moving in the right direction. Encouraging flashy running is detrimental to the dog's stock manners, since these guys should work out of dominance rather than prey drive. Not that it matters when they live in an urban environment...

Still, many of them work out better if raised on the farm instead of being brought to exciting places full of fun animals to chase. The sofa-coat, however, is not at all fun to take care of on a farm!! I much prefer my "pet quality" collies with their fitted, no-nonsense coats.

 

[mekasmom]

Quote:
People wait for two years to prevent orthopedic issues for the dog. It is appropriate to decide to alter for the BEST health of the dog rather than an antibreeding agenda. The dog himself is more important than some agenda. That's why largebreed owners wait longer.... because they care about the health of their dog.

 

[EweSheep]

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Yes I have noticed the herding instincts have been thrown out the door by some of those collie breeders and too many of them would "rush" the sheep flock for the fun of chasing. In our days, our collies love to herd the chickens and goats and there was no chasing going on. Dad never got around to prime the Collies to do this training since he was working alot more at that time.

Oh yes, tell me of the soft coat LOL, they are lovely for house but bad for outside since they woudl get cockyburrs so bad. Took us so many hours in trying to slick the burrs out. Our females have that trait while the males got a coarse rough coat. Now if they can put the softness in the smooth coat variety, I would be a happy camper LOL!

 

[pardenx3]

My opinion, is that just going on looks alone isn't enough. All appropriat health tests should be done and cleared, and should also prove themselves by earning titles/ch. titles as well. Go to chazhound.com, and someone there can give you lots more things to think about before doing that.

 

[SundownWaterfowl]

All the reasearch ive been doing says that males should not be neutered before 18 months of age. This gives the growth plates time to close. Also, a dog neutered before their growth plates close will have thinner bones, narrower heads, etc.

 

[Brindlebtch]

Quote:
This is correct. You will have a tall, long legged dog if you neuter before the growth plates close.

 

[SundownWaterfowl]

And if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.

 

[pardygwyn]

Quote:
I hear you! I learned the hard way that breeders selling dogs with "herding instincts" don't all have the same ideas as I do. I ended up with a girl whose prey drive was so strong, she couldn't help herself. She wreaked havoc all over my farm for the short time I had her, unless she was penned up. Got her a home with a nice family in town, and she's been gold ever since. I've been very cautious in my questions to breeders ever since. I don't want a dog for trialing, I want a dependable farm hand! My animals more or less free-range, and I need my dogs to be all right with that. Sounds like your dogs were nice to have around.

I haven't seen too many smooths that I liked. Not because of their coat, but because the current show head features (small eyes, facial "chiseling") are more obvious on them. That said, there are some REALLY nice working smooths out there.

Pardenx3: the standard venues don't really apply to a good farm dog. Champion titles are based on looks. Titles in herd trialing are also problematic for farm breeds like English Shepherds because they favor prey drive based herding instinct - see above for why not everyone wants that. Obedience and agility could be fun, but it's more useful for a future farm dog owner to see the parent dogs being worked successfully on their farm. In an English Shepherd puppy, you're looking for health testing, parental work style, puppy evaluation by the breeder, and possibly an AWFA evaluation of the parents if you'd like to see what other farm-based breeders have to say about their working type.

 

[RiverOtter]

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Ummm, actually it's a really individual thing. I had a dog who was fixed at 10 weeks old and would still mate females in season.
I had a male who wasn't fixed (to help his bone development) who didn't lift his leg to pee and was only interested in marking if his best bud was with him. Then they had to pee on all the same trees.

I currently have a dog who I was asked to please not fix till he was 3. He's 2 and hasn't been used yet, and is asleep on my DD's bed right now. He has tried lifting his leg inside exactly ONCE every time we moved and it is made very clear to him that it will not be tolerated. But he started hiking that leg up as a very young pup and I think it has a lot more to do with dominance then testosterone. He's the kind of dog who needs a warning label :For Professional Use Only: but that's why this breeder wants him.
And we're ok with it, if he ever has pups, we know they'll go to working homes. I'd say it's more about working with the breeder then living with the dog. A pair doesn't make him an uncontrollable monster. They're dogs, not jersey bulls and neutering (don't get me wrong, I'm big on neutering, my new pup's getting done as soon as the vet says he's good to go) is a pretty recent thing.
Think about it, 50 years ago, male dogs (unfixed) were FAR more popular as pets because you didn't have puppies to worry about.

I'd say if you feel you can work with the breeder then it's a pretty small favor to do.