Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[caychris]

Hello

Im new to chickens but my first ones were hatchery Dels. I love this breed.

I like you guys have been combing the cyber world for any hint of how this breed was developed.

I am very interested in becoming a breeder of them and even recreating a line myself. (Something that may take me some time to set up.)

Now Im a complete novice at this but to me from everything Ive read so far that some of the modern breeding programs may be a bit hampered by the selective approach of moving towards APA standards.

It occurs to me that Ellis had different motives initially and may have used a more brute force method to arrive at his goals.

I cant imagine in the competitive chicken market that Ellis would have been as concerned with the quality of bloodlines in the original Rock and NH (especially when it comes to Standards) This would have made his "experiment" very expensive. I think he may have been more concerned with the attempt to "throw" sports in the cross and may have used a very broad brush of initial breeding stock because he was looking for more production related qualities. He was looking for a bird he could produce in quantity. One of the quoted articles mentions that he chose the "Silver" sports to remove most of the spots that could remain on a processed bird with more barring. It would be interesting to note what other advantages the sports had over the non sports in the cross. This might help in being more able to grasp the initial stock choices he made. It might also be helpful to better determine which sports take priority in the early generations.

This is a bit of a reverse engineering project and in some ways knowing what the end product is supposed to look like doesn't really help us understand the path of how we got there. It is my hope that when I do get down to this project I will be able to provide good data and insight into this.

 

[crazyhen]

Kathyinmo. has already done this. Check out her thread. Basically she is now working on getting rid of the extra black smatters on the hens. They are big husky birds.

 

[caychris]

Kathyinmo. has already done this. Check out her thread. Basically she is now working on getting rid of the extra black smatters on the hens. They are big husky birds.

I have looked at it. Just been thinking I want to try my hand at it. I know I'm insane.

 

[finnfur]

Hello

Im new to chickens but my first ones were hatchery Dels. I love this breed.

I like you guys have been combing the cyber world for any hint of how this breed was developed.

I am very interested in becoming a breeder of them and even recreating a line myself. (Something that may take me some time to set up.)

Now Im a complete novice at this but to me from everything Ive read so far that some of the modern breeding programs may be a bit hampered by the selective approach of moving towards APA standards.

It occurs to me that Ellis had different motives initially and may have used a more brute force method to arrive at his goals.

I cant imagine in the competitive chicken market that Ellis would have been as concerned with the quality of bloodlines in the original Rock and NH (especially when it comes to Standards) This would have made his "experiment" very expensive. I think he may have been more concerned with the attempt to "throw" sports in the cross and may have used a very broad brush of initial breeding stock because he was looking for more production related qualities. He was looking for a bird he could produce in quantity. One of the quoted articles mentions that he chose the "Silver" sports to remove most of the spots that could remain on a processed bird with more barring. It would be interesting to note what other advantages the sports had over the non sports in the cross. This might help in being more able to grasp the initial stock choices he made. It might also be helpful to better determine which sports take priority in the early generations.

This is a bit of a reverse engineering project and in some ways knowing what the end product is supposed to look like doesn't really help us understand the path of how we got there. It is my hope that when I do get down to this project I will be able to provide good data and insight into this.

You might want to go here for more info - it also has a link to the original birds used for the recreation -
Good luck and welcome to the Delaware world
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/777172/delawares-from-kathyinmo

 

[caychris]

Has there been a lot of discussion about the quality of the Rocks that Ellis used. Iv'e been trying to read up on the PBR history and it seems to me that one of the difficulties that might occur with "painting this barn" has to do with the more refined PBR of our day vs those he may have used.

Its also very difficult to tell how early his color pattern was set or was it simply an outgrowth of the strain that met his production goals the best.

I would be interested to know about my hatchery birds and what may be good or bad about them. I tried to find out from them about where they got their line from but they said they had it so long that no one could remember. (Privet Hatchery NM) I have 4 birds about 17 weeks with very different variations. Ill try to get some good pics so I can have you experts begin to pick them apart and help me learn what I need to be looking for.

 

[gjensen]

Has there been a lot of discussion about the quality of the Rocks that Ellis used. Iv'e been trying to read up on the PBR history and it seems to me that one of the difficulties that might occur with "painting this barn" has to do with the more refined PBR of our day vs those he may have used.

Its also very difficult to tell how early his color pattern was set or was it simply an outgrowth of the strain that met his production goals the best.

I would be interested to know about my hatchery birds and what may be good or bad about them. I tried to find out from them about where they got their line from but they said they had it so long that no one could remember. (Privet Hatchery NM) I have 4 birds about 17 weeks with very different variations. Ill try to get some good pics so I can have you experts begin to pick them apart and help me learn what I need to be looking for.

To be frank, at this point, it does not matter what the birds were like that Ellis used. There is little to be gained by knowing that. We are far removed from that time. I think what is most relevant is what he was crossing the birds for. That is for the production of meat. Obviously he was using strains that he thought was suitable for the production of meat.

The color/pattern of the Delaware is a naturally occurring color "sport" as a result of the NH x BR cross after the initial generation. This started as an accident. What was mentioned as a sport is revealing that what he was working with had a "mixed" heritage.

The idea of making it a "breed" came late. Originally it was desired to create a male line. This color pattern over NH females produced birds of bot sex with the color pattern. This is what they called Indian Rivers, not the breed, this cross.

The cross that Kathy did has the potential to produce beautifully marked birds. She used parents that had good color, feather, and form to start. I seriously doubt that Ellis used birds that were marked as well as the birds Kathy used. Not to mention points like well spread tails etc. Good head points etc. etc. She chose excellent birds to do this cross. Concerning conformation they had and have a huge amount of potential.

I would not be interested in reproducing the cross. It is my opinion that the pieces and parts are out there. It is a matter of getting to know the breed, the birds, and going to work.

 

[desertmarcy]

I just put an ad up for my Delawares if anybody is within driving distance:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/901165/delawares-from-kathyinmo-recreated-line

 

[caychris]

I just put an ad up for my Delawares if anybody is within driving distance:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/901165/delawares-from-kathyinmo-recreated-line

Very tempting but I'm out of space and have not locked up my breeding space yet.

 

[caychris]

Here are some pics of my Dels from Privet they are starting their 18th week


The one in front is half blind (came that way and is the smallest of the bunch)

This is the blind one


The other one in the pic and the largest of the group

Clara the most shy

Im not good with pics yet

 

[capayvalleychick]

Here are some pics of my Dels from Privet they are starting their 18th week


The one in front is half blind (came that way and is the smallest of the bunch)

This is the blind one


The other one in the pic and the largest of the group

Clara the most shy

Im not good with pics yet

They are still young. When they are mature, you want them to look like this post #7

Like I said on the other thread, having the SOP would help you. It lists the defects and gives you the desirable head & body traits that you should look for in your birds. Not just pretty stuff - but things that make them a more productive dual purpose fowl.
I'm not a judge, so this is JMO. All the tails look like they might be pinched, which is common in hatchery birds.
The "largest one" and "Clara" have better rounding in their breasts than the first bird photo.
The one with the top view looks decent, width wise.
They should have more yellow color in their legs, but that may come with maturity.
The wing in the last photo looks split. But, many of mine are looking like that and I was told that could change. Check it again when she is mature. The SOP shows how the wing feathers should look.
You also need to feel their keel and make sure that it is long & straight.