Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[ArnoldsLane]

Hello everyone,

I hate to jump into the middle of a discussion, but I'm going to anyway, as I have to start somewhere and this thread seems like it is the most appropriate.

I received my first Delaware chicks three weeks ago. My plans are to carry a self-sustaining stock in order to provide pullets for eggs and other chickens for meat. I settled on the breed because it was dual-purpose, not specifically bred for quick growth, and I think it will make a good free-range/garden chicken. Admittedly, I have had second thoughts about getting bright white chickens for free ranging.

In order to maintain healthy genetics in the stock, should I seek a rooster from another source? Although it isn't certain, all of these chicks may have come from the same hatch, as they all came from the same breeder (Ideal Poultry).

Thanks to anyone who can answer.

 

[finnfur]

Hello everyone,

I hate to jump into the middle of a discussion, but I'm going to anyway, as I have to start somewhere and this thread seems like it is the most appropriate.

I received my first Delaware chicks three weeks ago. My plans are to carry a self-sustaining stock in order to provide pullets for eggs and other chickens for meat. I settled on the breed because it was dual-purpose, not specifically bred for quick growth, and I think it will make a good free-range/garden chicken. Admittedly, I have had second thoughts about getting bright white chickens for free ranging.

In order to maintain healthy genetics in the stock, should I seek a rooster from another source? Although it isn't certain, all of these chicks may have come from the same hatch, as they all came from the same breeder (Ideal Poultry).

Thanks to anyone who can answer.

I will let some one else expand on genetics but in the chicken world close breeding is not unusual

On the White chickens - every Hawk loss I have had is on a dark chicken- and more white were always available.
My theory has been that if they can see a mouse etc at 300 yards they won't have any trouble seeing any color chicken.
All of my losses were from Redtails and they selected medium /small birds. Also dark chickens are similar to natural prey -turkey ,
crow etc. This is just my experience and your mileage may differ

And WELCOME to Delawares

 

[ArnoldsLane]

Thank you very much for the info. The Delawares seem to possess quite a bit of personality, it is nice to know they aren't just sitting ducks... or chickens...

 

[capayvalleychick]

In order to maintain healthy genetics in the stock, should I seek a rooster from another source? Although it isn't certain, all of these chicks may have come from the same hatch, as they all came from the same breeder (Ideal Poultry).

I have been waiting to have enough time to explain this properly, since Leslie and Chris have also brought it up.

When breeding chickens, it's best to line breed. Chickens have so many hidden traits that can pop up, in order to get any predictable uniformity, you must limit the variables. When you cross two unrelated lines, you are creating such a huge mix of genes that it will be years -maybe decades- before you can eliminate the now many genes that produce undesirable traits and are able to get offspring that have uniform desired qualities that breed true.

Mixing lines is probably one of the most common newbie mistakes that rookie breeders make and it sets you up for years of work that could have been avoided if you would have stuck with one strain.

Chickens are not simply what you can see. Their genetic makeup is an entire mix of traits that are hidden.

Some new breeders assume that it is needed for vigor or to prevent inbreeding.
Unless you know for certain that a line has inbreeding depression, it's not necessary to cross different lines. If it's not broke, don't fix it! Inbreeding is necessary in chicken breeding or you will never get desired results that breed true. Many sources, like hatcheries, have already been mixing so many lines that there isn't any inbreeding depression, so it's usually not a concern.
If inbreeding depression has shown itself to be an issue, long time breeders know that you don't just cross in a different line. You do an experimental side breeding, to see what happens without ruining your entire line.
The best way is not to cross lines at all but to get some birds from another breeder who has the same line.

Here are multiple quotes that I've saved, words of wisdom from long time respected breeders:

From Judge/breeder Phil Bartz "The biggest killer of good "lines" is not staying with those lines by right away putting this line with that and ending up with more junk than you can imagine. Why? You have just made hodge podgegenetics and unknowns that have laid dormant for years can reveal themselves in huge percentages even though both lines didn't show any signs of having issues. You slowly introduce new male or sometimes females to your current breeding line by small pen matings of what you hope to accomplish by the intro with your line and then see what happens. It will take three years to know any sure continuation of successes of the cross to continue breeding true to that improvement staying put. You stick with your main line and when you feel comfortable the cross is worth the risk then you can switch to keeping this new intro improvement as your main "line" while always keeping a few of your originals just in case you ever need to go back to that or use it for vigor improvement crosses back into the "new improved line" five to seven years down the road. "

From breeder Bob Blosl
"Kathy do not cross any barred rocks to the three trios that you got from Nebraska. If you do the Gods from Plymouth Rock heven will strike lighting onto your incubator. If you ever need to cross new blood you go back to Frank or Jerimie in Nebraska. If you out cross this line you will loose everything that has been built over the last fifty years. Stay with what you have and just try to tie a not on the end of the rope and hang on to what you got."

"Be patient and dont cross stains and like Charlie the secret is to get a buddy or two and then every four or five years swap birds or rotate your breeders to the right as I ex planed in my line breeding article I wrote for another web site. Out crossing can bring in undesirable traits"

"you are so correct on having two or three people having your birds and hoping and praying they stick with it for many years. This way you can go back to one of them and get a male or female cross the bird back to your line and get yourself a fresh shot of blood. This way and this is the breeding secret of Rhode Island Reds in my view is dont cross strains for fresh blood."

"I am not much of a fan of crossing lines as it opens up the back door for pesty faults than can drive you nuts."

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Kim, I'm so glad you wrote this up and posted it. It is what I read from Bob Blosl when I was first researching the idea of breeding chickens. I believe it for a couple of different reasons, but mainly because it means I can keep things VERY simple and VERY small here on my farm. I don't need separate areas for different lines and intricate marking systems to keep the birds straight. At least not for a few years. And that really appeals to me.

Meanwhile, over on some of the facebook pages I keep reading conflicting information about using multiple males from multiple sources to keep the lines "fresh." Some people push that method with enough assertiveness that I sometimes question things.

 

[caychris]

I have been waiting to have enough time to explain this properly, since Leslie and Chris have also brought it up.

When breeding chickens, it's best to line breed. Chickens have so many hidden traits that can pop up, in order to get any predictable uniformity, you must limit the variables. When you cross two unrelated lines, you are creating such a huge mix of genes that it will be years -maybe decades- before you can eliminate the now many genes that produce undesirable traits and are able to get offspring that have uniform desired qualities that breed true.

Mixing lines is probably one of the most common newbie mistakes that rookie breeders make and it sets you up for years of work that could have been avoided if you would have stuck with one strain.

Chickens are not simply what you can see. Their genetic makeup is an entire mix of traits that are hidden.

Some new breeders assume that it is needed for vigor or to prevent inbreeding.
Unless you know for certain that a line has inbreeding depression, it's not necessary to cross different lines. If it's not broke, don't fix it! Inbreeding is necessary in chicken breeding or you will never get desired results that breed true. Many sources, like hatcheries, have already been mixing so many lines that there isn't any inbreeding depression, so it's usually not a concern.
If inbreeding depression has shown itself to be an issue, long time breeders know that you don't just cross in a different line. You do an experimental side breeding, to see what happens without ruining your entire line.
The best way is not to cross lines at all but to get some birds from another breeder who has the same line.

Here are multiple quotes that I've saved, words of wisdom from long time respected breeders:

From Judge/breeder Phil Bartz "The biggest killer of good "lines" is not staying with those lines by right away putting this line with that and ending up with more junk than you can imagine. Why? You have just made hodge podgegenetics and unknowns that have laid dormant for years can reveal themselves in huge percentages even though both lines didn't show any signs of having issues. You slowly introduce new male or sometimes females to your current breeding line by small pen matings of what you hope to accomplish by the intro with your line and then see what happens. It will take three years to know any sure continuation of successes of the cross to continue breeding true to that improvement staying put. You stick with your main line and when you feel comfortable the cross is worth the risk then you can switch to keeping this new intro improvement as your main "line" while always keeping a few of your originals just in case you ever need to go back to that or use it for vigor improvement crosses back into the "new improved line" five to seven years down the road. "

From breeder Bob Blosl
"Kathy do not cross any barred rocks to the three trios that you got from Nebraska. If you do the Gods from Plymouth Rock heven will strike lighting onto your incubator. If you ever need to cross new blood you go back to Frank or Jerimie in Nebraska. If you out cross this line you will loose everything that has been built over the last fifty years. Stay with what you have and just try to tie a not on the end of the rope and hang on to what you got."

"Be patient and dont cross stains and like Charlie the secret is to get a buddy or two and then every four or five years swap birds or rotate your breeders to the right as I ex planed in my line breeding article I wrote for another web site. Out crossing can bring in undesirable traits"

"you are so correct on having two or three people having your birds and hoping and praying they stick with it for many years. This way you can go back to one of them and get a male or female cross the bird back to your line and get yourself a fresh shot of blood. This way and this is the breeding secret of Rhode Island Reds in my view is don't cross strains for fresh blood."

"I am not much of a fan of crossing lines as it opens up the back door for pesty faults than can drive you nuts."

Thank you
This just confirms to me that breeding has to have specific purpose and you are looking for specific things and data is what you want. I think in this case I do plan to keep some of the Kathy line separate but I do intend to get specific side lines. Control being the operative word here and that you do not want to make lots of changes all at once (new lines do make lots of changes). I think with many newbies the biggest problem is small quantities and trying to rush the process. Im at the outset of this process and looking at the "Lets see what happens" I'm working with young birds and limited stock but do intend to continue within the line as well.

 

[caychris]

I'm also resisting getting more Delaware hatchery chicks. (They came in yesterday) After getting a couple of Kim's I can see the difference.

 

[capayvalleychick]

Meanwhile, over on some of the facebook pages I keep reading conflicting information about using multiple males from multiple sources to keep the lines "fresh." Some people push that method with enough assertiveness that I sometimes question things.

When I read something, I consider the source. With chicken breeders, I ask how long they have been breeding. Do they have photos of birds that they have bred, not just the first generation, multiple generations, so you can see if they are producing consistent good results.
Have they ever shown their birds and how did they place? Getting best in breed at a fair is not the same as winning a class at a larger show with multiple breeders competing. They may say, they are into utility, not pretty birds. But what I want to see if a breeder has the ability to produce desired results over time. Showing and the points accrued from winning is a good indicator that the person knows how to breed poultry (unless the wins are from bought birds).
It doesn't have to be someone with the same breed. A lot of good breeding advice is general for all breeds.

Most of the best breeders are not the ones that talk a lot. Bob was an exception. I miss him.

 

[caychris]

When I read something, I consider the source. With chicken breeders, I ask how long they have been breeding. Do they have photos of birds that they have bred, not just the first generation, multiple generations, so you can see if they are producing consistent good results.
Have they ever shown their birds and how did they place? Getting best in breed at a fair is not the same as winning a class at a larger show with multiple breeders competing. They may say, they are into utility, not pretty birds. But what I want to see if a breeder has the ability to produce desired results over time. Showing and the points accrued from winning is a good indicator that the person knows how to breed poultry (unless the wins are from bought birds).
It doesn't have to be someone with the same breed. A lot of good breeding advice is general for all breeds.

Most of the best breeders are not the ones that talk a lot. Bob was an exception. I miss him.

I don't mean to indicate that I'm taking the advice lightly at all. My thinking is that if I start with a broad net now narrowing within that group will give me a better chance to improve within the birds I have and not go outside again for some time if at all.

 

[Zanna]

Most of the best breeders are not the ones that talk a lot. Bob was an exception. I miss him.

Wow, me to. What an impression someone you have never even met can make on your life!