Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[gjensen]

Hey guys. Here's my lead rooster. I don't have a copy of the SOP yet ( just not in the budget ), but hopefully will soon. Please tell me what you think. Don't pull any punches, I want to know the good, bad and the ugly. I plan on really, really, really trying to achieve the SOP ... or at least work towards that goal!

He's right at one year old. I think he has a problem with his wings for sure, but don't know what you call that where those bottom feathers are separate. I believe he should have five points on the cone, but not sure how you count them up, or if you include the front and back of the cone? He does have a teepee tail although its hard to tell from these pics. I think he has good head size and shape but the feathers on his neck do have a slight discoloration ... not much, but it's there.

All thoughts and criticisms are welcome! Thanks.

Hey guys. Here's my lead rooster. I don't have a copy of the SOP yet ( just not in the budget ), but hopefully will soon. Please tell me what you think. Don't pull any punches, I want to know the good, bad and the ugly. I plan on really, really, really trying to achieve the SOP ... or at least work towards that goal!

He's right at one year old. I think he has a problem with his wings for sure, but don't know what you call that where those bottom feathers are separate. I believe he should have five points on the cone, but not sure how you count them up, or if you include the front and back of the cone? He does have a teepee tail although its hard to tell from these pics. I think he has good head size and shape but the feathers on his neck do have a slight discoloration ... not much, but it's there.

All thoughts and criticisms are welcome! Thanks.

I am not going to beat him up. You will figure out much along the way.

Your comments on the wings is probably lazy wings and is heritable. You would have to open the wings up to see if they have split wings. Some cockerels have it and grow out of it. It has to be dealt with at some point.

The bird does have a shallow keel, and lacks a well rounded breast. Some would call that a "cut-off chest". He is shallow, and without depth.

There are other things, but there are two points to consider.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Here is a link to a farm working with Delawares as meat birds. They report processing weights of 3 - 4 lbs dressed weight at 14 weeks. Is anyone doing better than that?


http://cobbcreekfarm.com/the-farm/heritage-delawares/

The stats I could find about the meat bird industry in the 1950s are for live birds of 3.08 lbs at 10 weeks. That's the historical period when Delaware were used in the meat industry. Here is a very cool article about the development of the modern meat bird.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fo...n-except-chicken/story-fneuz8zj-1227323144992

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

snip

He's right at one year old. I think he has a problem with his wings for sure, but don't know what you call that where those bottom feathers are separate.

snip

We had similar wing issues pop up in the line I'm working with. There was a lot of discussion about what to call it. Slipped wing? The illustration for wing faults in the APA SOP is very poorly reproduced so isn't terribly helpful. The written description for Slipped Wing seems to include a lot of various things going wrong with the way the wing's primary feathers fold, though it doesn't specifically address wing feathers curving down super low like that. We are selecting as strongly as possible against it. From what I understand it can be quite a snag in a breeding program.

To my very untrained and inexperienced eye, having a wing carried low and/or forward doesn't really show off the chest and underline of a bird very well.

 

[gjensen]

Here is a link to a farm working with Delawares as meat birds. They report processing weights of 3 - 4 lbs dressed weight at 14 weeks. Is anyone doing better than that?


http://cobbcreekfarm.com/the-farm/heritage-delawares/

The stats I could find about the meat bird industry in the 1950s are for live birds of 3.08 lbs at 10 weeks. That's the historical period when Delaware were used in the meat industry. Here is a very cool article about the development of the modern meat bird.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fo...n-except-chicken/story-fneuz8zj-1227323144992

Live weights as I mentioned would dress out in that range. Those are good weights.

 

[gjensen]

We had similar wing issues pop up in the line I'm working with. There was a lot of discussion about what to call it. Slipped wing? The illustration for wing faults in the APA SOP is very poorly reproduced so isn't terribly helpful. The written description for Slipped Wing seems to include a lot of various things going wrong with the way the wing's primary feathers fold, though it doesn't specifically address wing feathers curving down super low like that. We are selecting as strongly as possible against it. From what I understand it can be quite a snag in a breeding program.

To my very untrained and inexperienced eye, having a wing carried low and/or forward doesn't really show off the chest and underline of a bird very well.

It does look as bad in the other picture. It could be a slipped or even split, but I would want to see the bird in person before I went that far.

The wings in the line that you are working with comes from the New Hampshire side of the project.

The bird is shallow and "cut off".

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

It does look as bad in the other picture. It could be a slipped or even split, but I would want to see the bird in person before I went that far.

The wings in the line that you are working with comes from the New Hampshire side of the project.

The bird is shallow and "cut off".

Interesting info about the source of the wing issue in the line I'm working with. How was that figured out? We speculated about it a lot between ourselves during grow out last season, so any specifics would be very much appreciated.

I'm very curious to see what happens with the wings here this year. Among lots of other things.

 

[gjensen]

Interesting info about the source of the wing issue in the line I'm working with. How was that figured out? We speculated about it a lot between ourselves during grow out last season, so any specifics would be very much appreciated.

I'm very curious to see what happens with the wings here this year. Among lots of other things.

Figuring the wing issue out was seeing it prevalent in some lines of the pure German strain NHs. I have battled with it. Most grow out of it, but some do not. I was getting less and less tolerant of it in the growers. Some of the crossed birds do not show it, or a lower incident rate. Mine straight from the importer did.

I tolerated it to some extent initially, because most did grow out of it. As I became established, I became less tolerant. Occasionally one would carry the trait into maturity, though to a lesser degree.

I tried the Barred Rocks for a few seasons(same birds as the cross), and did not have any trouble with the wings. Unfortunately it is heritable. Obviously. I do not think it showed up in the initial cross, or I do not remember it. Kathy would know better. It started popping up later at the subsequent generations began to be crossed. It acts like a recessive, or it appeared that way to me. I have not tested it, and some might have had different experiences.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Figuring the wing issue out was seeing it prevalent in some lines of the pure German strain NHs. I have battled with it. Most grow out of it, but some do not. I was getting less and less tolerant of it in the growers. Some of the crossed birds do not show it, or a lower incident rate. Mine straight from the importer did.

I tolerated it to some extent initially, because most did grow out of it. As I became established, I became less tolerant. Occasionally one would carry the trait into maturity, though to a lesser degree.

I tried the Barred Rocks for a few seasons(same birds as the cross), and did not have any trouble with the wings. Unfortunately it is heritable. Obviously. I do not think it showed up in the initial cross, or I do not remember it. Kathy would know better. It started popping up later at the subsequent generations began to be crossed. It acts like a recessive, or it appeared that way to me. I have not tested it, and some might have had different experiences.

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing your experience.

I did see super funky feathering in the wings on the younger birds, which mostly went away. I think some people have it mostly in the males, some also have had wing issues in the females. I only had one serious case, in a male.

I think the breeding bird I chose from my first set of chicks shows improved wing carriage over his sire. We shall see how the chicks grow out this year. It is nerve wracking to wait through that stage.

At this stage in the restoration project there are just SO many things to watch for ... it's like playing Mr. Potato head with the birds, trying to figure out which set of good and bad traits you want to commit to. Certainly no one bird has it all. Not yet.

 

[gjensen]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing your experience.

I did see super funky feathering in the wings on the younger birds, which mostly went away. I think some people have it mostly in the males, some also have had wing issues in the females. I only had one serious case, in a male.

I think the breeding bird I chose from my first set of chicks shows improved wing carriage over his sire. We shall see how the chicks grow out this year. It is nerve wracking to wait through that stage.

At this stage in the restoration project there are just SO many things to watch for ... it's like playing Mr. Potato head with the birds, trying to figure out which set of good and bad traits you want to commit to. Certainly no one bird has it all. Not yet.

That is well said, and when someone asks for an opinion on a bird, they should remember that. It is like that for all of the rare breeds. No one has anything to brag on yet. What I see is different lines with different strengths. A breed is the sum of it's parts, and it is up to the breeder to identify what they need, and how to get it there. Much of it is simple selection, but more is required some of the time. The best we can do is work with what we have, and to push for progress.
Not to mention that some will emphasize different things along the way for their own reasons. Everyone wants the ideal bird, but everyone is starting in a different place, and see different things. A breed is in the most trouble when people stop intelligently breeding them, and the breed begins to lose important characteristics all together.

The project that Kathy started and some of you are continuing is a big contribution to the breed overall. I hope that others will be able to access the genetics at some point and improve the breed over all. They are ready to contribute, though I would be careful about who has access. People in general will ruin the strain and name in no time. At the same time a breed contribution is helpful.

I can relate with the challenges. The one step forward, and a step back. Still every spring I am hopeful, and looking for that individual or individuals that will help me make another step. I think that half of the battle is not to lose anything you have along the way.
I am looking over my growers, and in some ways excited, and disappointed about some things. I have a tendency to focus on the problems, and have to remind myself of the progress and strengths. Perfection is far from me, but I enjoy the challenge.
Rare breeds are not for the faint of heart (not speaking of collectors and propagators), but when the day comes that others recognize the achievements, you can smile on the inside knowing that they are indeed your own achievements. They are not the handiwork of another.

 

[Mr King]

Hello Guys, awesome thread!! Just what I've been looking for!

I'm getting my Delaware breeding program started this year. I had one rooster that I had bought from a local breeder, and we loved him. After researching the breed we decided to keep Delaware exclusively and went back to the breeder for more but he had switched breeds ;-(

We purchased a dozen eggs from Chickcharney farms out of NC, but due to incubator difficulties only had two hatch ... one cockerel and one pullet. I was happy with this but wanted more so after searching on facebook my daughter found another breeder of Delaware about an hour away and we were able to purchase 12 two day old chicks. With these I got 11 pullets and 1 cockerel.

I was planning on taking my original rooster and cross with the NC pullet, and the NC cockerel with the best of the local breeders stock and then do spiral breeding between the pens, of course always selecting for improvement. But then I read the last few posts about line breeding and not sure anymore ... but geesh I'm having fun!!

I also got some eggs from chickcharny farm but i used a hen for incubate eggs and got 90% hatch rate. I like them alot they're still baby chicks a few weeks old unfortunately last night had real bad thunderstorm and heavy rain and wind and had some losses. But still have some to breed. Good luck with yours.