Breeding Dogs

[fowltemptress]

Um . . . erm . . . going to ignore most posts right now . . .

You mentioned never owning intact adults before. I won't claim any knowledge other than personal experience, but I've had several dogs in my life. My mother liked males, and believed in neutering them at an older age, if at all. Those dogs were nice calm dogs that did their jobs and were easily trained, and extremely loving without being annoyingly licky. At some point someone convinced her it was her duty to neuter dogs at a younger age, and I'm not sure what the deal on this is, but for some reason those dogs never "grew up." We still had them trained and all that, but they never left their obnoxious puppy stage or calmed down. I've never known such irritating creatures. Now I neuter, but I make sure they've had a few years of being intact so that I don't have to deal with an irritating puppy my entire life. My SO, on the other hand, had his dog neutered at 6 months, and darned if it wasn't several years old now and acts like a puppy. I wish I knew why this seems to happen, because with all this neuter frenzy people seem to think it's all in my head and look at me like I'm a horrible person if I say my dogs haven't been neutered yet (which is ridiculous . . . it's not like I'm allowing them to roam willy nilly to find every grump in heat. As long as I control the dog, what business is it of theirs?).

Anyway, that's my experience with intact males, at least. Easier to train, calmer, and much better, less annoying temperaments.


Grump . . . that's an interesting filter. I think if I was in charge I'd have the word in question changed to "meanie-poo".

 

[chinbunny]

Quote:
Shelters don't breed animals, so they don't cause their problems. They don't adopt out intact animals for pretty clear reasons. You don't buy from a shelter, you adopt. Our shelter is a low kill because they work hard to adopt out those animals, offer free or low cost spay/neuter to the community and educate. They often take animals from other high kill shelters - to get them adopted. Some of those shelters are so crowded the animals get three days at the most.

I adopted a cat and a dog from my shelter. (both owner surrender and purebreeds). I recently took in a kitten someone dumped in the parking lot where I work. The two from the shelter cost me $45 and $50 (that was quite a few years ago, it would be $85 and $100 now). The kitten I took in cost me close to $500 for spay and all the necessary shots and treatments she needed. The shelter was a better deal and my vet is also the shelter's vet.

They may not be breeding, but they do encourage owners to dump them. Therefore, they are a major part of the problem. Actually, you buy dogs, you adopt children if you want to get technical abut it. Doesn't matter what they do with the animal, or how they got it, or how much they sold it for, its still a resale.

The shelters holding them for three days ar doing that because their state laws tell them they can only hold them for that long. Where I am at its seven days. They rehome the animal, or put it down.

 

[chinbunny]

Quote:
Well then, don't complain about animal overpopulation. Because a home is a home. And where I come from the law says I can keep a dog on a chain if I want to, like it or not. Its perfectly acceptable. not everyone has to, and thats fine. But most people here do that with their large outdoor dogs to keep them from getting hit. And its not considered inhumane or creul. How about all the farmers that keep their outdoor dogs chained and penned up? It that creul? My current dog is a house dog. If i ever got a large dog again, it would stay outside.

What people do with the rasbbits after I sell them is their business. Keeping a rabbit in a cage is not the same thing as chaining a dog.

 

[High Roost Ranch]

RebelCowboySNB wrote:
Also there is no such thing as an over population of dogs. God for bid some one in the city sees a dog running loose, its the end of the world. At the most .5 dogs per acre. But there are 2 or 3 raccoons per acre.... Fact is the only thing on this planet that there is an over population of is us humans. Off a few billion of us an the world would be a better place for all. But ya don't hear anyone saying your a sorry parent if you don't have your kids spayed or neutered before puberty. An when have you told someone they should go get genetic testing before they start a family.

Good grief, I've not said anything until now. But wow, that is a huge misconception. It frightens me that you think there is no such thing as an overpopulation of dogs. Daily, hourly, dogs are dying in shelters by the hundreds because there isn't enough homes for them. Cats too. I can't imagine the concept you laid out of a 1/2 a dog per acre running at large. Can't you imagine the chaos that would cause? You are talking about 3 different subjects here. Humans are one, wildlife the second, and then the dogs we've domesticated and overpopulated our country with is the third. Each is it's own issue. This one is about too many dogs and not enough homes for them. Where I'm at, we have to deal with the dogs that have been dumped and left to fend for themselves to form packs, on the 50,000 some acres that wrap around behind us in the reserve. They come in for a kill, and the outcome isn't in their favor. Just last week, someone removed the collars and dumped an elderly Great Dane, and two mixed breed dogs on our road. Was there a home for them and did the owner do the responsible thing? Hell no. Dump the dogs, it's easier to dump than to deal with them. I'd better stop before I get myself into trouble here, but please open your eyes to the crisis of all these dogs that are in need of a home when there is no home to be found for them.

But please, don't breed. Border Collies are high energy dogs, they were bred for a JOB, they need a JOB to do. Have one as a pet, and don't discredit the older dog at the shelter, he's gone through his puppy stage and is ready to be the finished dog that will offer you just as much gratitude as an immature pup. There is no money to be made in breeding dogs if it's done correctly.

The issue of to breed or not to breed has always been a hot topic. There is a big gap between the two sides, and the middle is filled full of bombs.​

 

[CedarRidgeChicks]

I have been watching this thread, reading the post and would like to add: My DH and I have raised AmBulldogs for many years, we do not consider ourselves breeders.We have not had a litter of pups in2 years and don't plan to this upcoming year. Our pups are spoken for before they are bred. We have never made any money breeding; even though we are talking about dogs that sell upwards of $500.00..We have one male and 2 females that we paid $3000 for with their vet expenses over a two year period, we have $6500 in them..(yes there was one ER service on our male that accounts for a large chunk of this..but that has to be considered in responsible breeding)..We bred once in this time, the pups are now 2yr., we don't go for big litters..we had 4, sold three of them for $2400 with vet bills of approx. $400...no profit..btw..these expenses do not factor in any daily cost.

I guess my point is research and research, talk to breeders, keep notes give serious thought before making your decision.

 

[mekasmom]

Quote:
I think that is the best point made in this whole discussion. There are many homes that shelters simply will not adopt out to. And that is a big problem.
Pits/mixes and other high bite breeds or there mixes are routinely euthanized here (chows, GSD, rotties, other breeds/mixes that have a high bite statistic). And ill animals are also culled. There is no reason for an animal to have heartworms, and that is the fault of the owners who had them before they ended up in shelters. Elderly animals with health issues are not adopted out, and are often culled. Any animal that has a questionable temperament is euthed no matter what breed. Any animal that shows food aggression or aggression to other animals is culled.

But smaller, sweet animals and young animals are almost always adopted out. The animals that are destroyed in shelters are usually the ones that should be destroyed. There isn't an overpopulation of acceptable pet animals with the exception of labs/mixes. They are harder to find homes for in society. And that one group really is overpopulated. But even counting those, that isn't the majority of animals being destroyed. Most of the ones euthed really should be. They have issues that make them not pet-friendly.

 

[mekasmom]

Quote:
It's a money game. They are dealers hiding under the rescue label. Then they try to charge $700+ to sell dogs, and whine when they can't.

Not all rescues are like that, but some are. There is one WONDERFUL rescue in this area that deals only with senior dogs. They do amazing things rehoming animals that would have been destroyed due to health issues. They only take purebreds or small cute dogs though. But they are still great because they don't overcharge and do find homes for animals that the shelters would have destroyed due to health issues. There are other rescues that are breed specific, and are in it for the money. They buy dogs at $50 from the pound/shelters, and resell at $500+. I think they do it just to keep the prices high in their breeds. But that is just my opinion.

 

[mekasmom]

Quote:
Keeping a dog chained does make it more prone to biting. A kennel is better if the dog must stay outside or a fence/ wireless fence. Tethering is ok for short periods of "potty time", but to just chain it up and never spend time with it is not the best solution. Sometimes it is the only solution that people have though because they don't have a fence/kennel. And one could argue it is better than the dog ending up at the pound or running the streets. People do need to spend time exercising and socializing the dog though. Short periods of tethering are different than putting it in a corner and forgetting it.

As far as ol roy, at least the dog is fed. I don't think it is the very best food, but the dog is fed. And that means a lot. I would rather see people feeding Ole Roy rather than not feeding the dog at all. Same with alpo or any other food. I think we get too hung up on what food rather than saying "thank God the dog is being fed and loved".

 

[RabbitMage]

Quote:
Keeping a rabbit in a cage not much larger than it's body isn't all that different from chaining a dog, just like it's not that different from keeping a goldfish in a bowl, or different from making a horse live in a 12x12 stall without exercise. Will the animal live? Yes, for a while at least. Is it an adequate way to house them, regardless of legality? No. It is likely they're going to suffer negative effects, being housed that way? Yes.

I don't feel that any home is better than no home. I think adopting/selling an animal that you've put time and money and care into and putting it into a situation where it's going to end up neglected or malnourished or mistreated or turned loose isn't an acceptable situation. This is also why I personally do not make a habit of selling rabbits to pet homes. There just aren't enough 'good ones' out there.

 

[lishah2000]

To bring this back to border collies. I have strong feelings about the breed. I love them, but live with one who is the result of poor breeding. He often borders on not having a good quality of life because of his poor breeding. We do our best to keep his life as stable and predictable as possible so he stays mentally healthy. It's a challenge.

I have no problems with responsible breeders. I have a few very good friends that are breeders. I wouldn't hesitate buying a puppy from them because I see what they put into their litters. They put lots of training and socialization into their puppies and keep them with the mom the proper amount of time.


I got to know a young border collie female that was turned into our shelter. Sweetest little girl ever. She was just a year old and was born with a deformed front leg. She couldn't use it, but because it was there she tried to. Which made her not be able to really walk and she was always in a very odd body position. It was probably just a fluke that she was born this way, but who ever owned her didn't do the right thing by her.

The volunteers at the shelter all donated the money to have the leg removed. She started to walk normal within a few days. That dog is now a therapy dog and is very good at it.