BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[bnjrob]

Once again I have been reminded of why I keep far more birds than I *need* to keep. You just don't know when you're gonna get screwed and lose birds. Yesterday, despite an electric poultry net, a dog ( I think it was the neighbor's across the road) managed to get inside my juvenile turkey pen and kill half of them. Of course it managed to kill all of the males that I needed - they came from a tom that had to be put down earlier this year. So I have no males to carry on his line, which cuts down on the diversity that I try to keep. And the dog killed most of the young females. I'm left with a couple of young males that come from a father that I still have, so don't need them. And a handful of females, one of which has a crooked toe, so is out of the running as a breeder. A couple more are injured, so may not be able to be kept for breeding if they survive. They are walking and drinking, so I have hope for them yet, but this incident has set me back a year. I was hoping to cull a few of the old hens and replace them with better hens from this year's hatch, but don't have many options left now with this year's birds. So will have to keep pretty much everything alive for a while, to hedge against further loss, until next year when I can start hatching again and rebuilding things. I know folks like to keep the number of birds to a minimum to save on work and feed costs, but the reality is that if you are trying to be self-sufficient, and especially if you are selectively breeding for any trait, if you don't keep plenty of backups, you can really get screwed. It is better to breed from your Junior Varsity breeders than it is to have to scramble to find new stock and start completely from scratch with birds that you don't know their quirks and how they tend to turn out when you breed them together.

 

[lpatelski]

Once again I have been reminded of why I keep far more birds than I *need* to keep. You just don't know when you're gonna get screwed and lose birds. Yesterday, despite an electric poultry net, a dog ( I think it was the neighbor's across the road) managed to get inside my juvenile turkey pen and kill half of them. Of course it managed to kill all of the males that I needed - they came from a tom that had to be put down earlier this year. So I have no males to carry on his line, which cuts down on the diversity that I try to keep. And the dog killed most of the young females. I'm left with a couple of young males that come from a father that I still have, so don't need them. And a handful of females, one of which has a crooked toe, so is out of the running as a breeder. A couple more are injured, so may not be able to be kept for breeding if they survive. They are walking and drinking, so I have hope for them yet, but this incident has set me back a year. I was hoping to cull a few of the old hens and replace them with better hens from this year's hatch, but don't have many options left now with this year's birds. So will have to keep pretty much everything alive for a while, to hedge against further loss, until next year when I can start hatching again and rebuilding things. I know folks like to keep the number of birds to a minimum to save on work and feed costs, but the reality is that if you are trying to be self-sufficient, and especially if you are selectively breeding for any trait, if you don't keep plenty of backups, you can really get screwed. It is better to breed from your Junior Varsity breeders than it is to have to scramble to find new stock and start completely from scratch with birds that you don't know their quirks and how they tend to turn out when you breed them together.

I have worked animal control for 14 years now. It always sickens me when people let their dogs loose without a care in the world as to what happens while they are out. You know that dog went home with blood and feathers on it. I would find out if it still has blood on it today. Then at least you can make a complaint, take them to small claims, and maybe buy a very nice replacement Tom from someone you have been wanting to purchase from.
Do not wait too long...

 

[Beekissed]

That's a big, bad pill to swallow and I'm sorry you've had to deal with that.

Had more losses to predators this year than I've ever had in all my chicken years combined, so I feel some of your pain, though your birds were bigger and of more value than my own. I was starting to feel a certain panic and anger there for a bit, feeling like a failure too, but God reminded me that He has a plan and it's always, always better than my own....and so I just let it go and trusted God to work it all out as He saw fit. Then He provided for my need and covered my losses completely...out of the blue, as He usually does. LOVE how He does that!

Just wait.....trust...let it go. You just might be surprised at what happens.

 

[bnjrob]

I have worked animal control for 14 years now. It always sickens me when people let their dogs loose without a care in the world as to what happens while they are out. You know that dog went home with blood and feathers on it. I would find out if it still has blood on it today. Then at least you can make a complaint, take them to small claims, and maybe buy a very nice replacement Tom from someone you have been wanting to purchase from.
Do not wait too lo

That's a big, bad pill to swallow and I'm sorry you've had to deal with that.

Had more losses to predators this year than I've ever had in all my chicken years combined, so I feel some of your pain, though your birds were bigger and of more value than my own. I was starting to feel a certain panic and anger there for a bit, feeling like a failure too, but God reminded me that He has a plan and it's always, always better than my own....and so I just let it go and trusted God to work it all out as He saw fit. Then He provided for my need and covered my losses completely...out of the blue, as He usually does. LOVE how He does that!

Just wait.....trust...let it go. You just might be surprised at what happens.

We have been in the process of changing all of our perimeter fencing from dilapidated barbed wire to field fencing. To make dogs and coyotes either dig under or climb over if they want in. That should help some. Still have 1500 ft of fence line left to finish. My husband is planning on making more of an effort to help me get it done faster since we not only lost turkeys, but the coyotes got 5 guineas and a chicken hen earlier this week. Am waiting for the rain to stop so I can get to town and buy more t posts. For now, the turkeys are going to stay locked in their houses. They are open air houses and they have plenty of room, even though they prefer to be able to get out and run around. It is for reasons like this that we make the houses roomy and avoid keeping the occupant levels too densely packed - so if for some reason they have to be confined, they can still be somewhat comfortable. I'm glad that I still have birds left to work with. We planned for this, because we knew it could happen and we didn't want to be left without birds to breed from. Our planning has paid off.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Once again I have been reminded of why I keep far more birds than I *need* to keep. You just don't know when you're gonna get screwed and lose birds. Yesterday, despite an electric poultry net, a dog ( I think it was the neighbor's across the road) managed to get inside my juvenile turkey pen and kill half of them. Of course it managed to kill all of the males that I needed - they came from a tom that had to be put down earlier this year. So I have no males to carry on his line, which cuts down on the diversity that I try to keep. And the dog killed most of the young females. I'm left with a couple of young males that come from a father that I still have, so don't need them. And a handful of females, one of which has a crooked toe, so is out of the running as a breeder. A couple more are injured, so may not be able to be kept for breeding if they survive. They are walking and drinking, so I have hope for them yet, but this incident has set me back a year. I was hoping to cull a few of the old hens and replace them with better hens from this year's hatch, but don't have many options left now with this year's birds. So will have to keep pretty much everything alive for a while, to hedge against further loss, until next year when I can start hatching again and rebuilding things. I know folks like to keep the number of birds to a minimum to save on work and feed costs, but the reality is that if you are trying to be self-sufficient, and especially if you are selectively breeding for any trait, if you don't keep plenty of backups, you can really get screwed. It is better to breed from your Junior Varsity breeders than it is to have to scramble to find new stock and start completely from scratch with birds that you don't know their quirks and how they tend to turn out when you breed them together.

That's terrible news, I'm very sorry to hear that your turkeys were killed. I do hope you can carry on with your breeding program.

 

[NanaKat]

Learning to caponize is on my bucket list.

@bnjrob So sorry to hear about your flock losses. Neighborhood dogs are a real pain.

 

[Turk Raphael]

OK I will! @Kev how many generations to get back the meat qualities of a Buckeye/Cornish cross? What about the temperament? I see what I think is Leghorn temperament in my hatchery Cornish and Barred Holland stock- easy to spook, on the hyper side..... perhaps it's all about the line? I hear European Leghorns are very different from North American ones. I'm after a white egg, so I assume there would be lots of other "leghorn" genes along for the ride. If I did cross in a leghorn, I'd be hesitant to use the commercial lines because of the dwarfing genes in there. I was hoping to get white eggs from the Barred Hollands, but I'm not sure if they are even going to lay a white egg, coming from the hatchery.


Quote:

@DesertChic I feel badly, too when I cull a chicken, you are not alone! I have decided that cutting the throat is not as quick as the head off approach so I've gone that route..... But caponizing would probably be a good technique to have well practised. It makes good sense on so many levels, but I too wish there was a way to do it so the chicken had at least a local anesthetic. I know that those are toxic to chickens, but it seems like you can get away with a careful dose expecially of the NSAID's. Here's a good paper on pain in birds
http://avianmedicine.net/content/uploads/2013/03/08_pain_management.pdf

Sometime back, I gave dad a tube of lidocaine Jel because he wanted to see what happened if he applied it before making the incision. He told me it didn't seem to help or hurt the birds but he was warned off that idea by someone on BYC.

 

[Turk Raphael]

SURGICAL RESULTS.

As promised, here are the dismal results of my effort to caponize very young Dominique cockerels. Not promising at this point.

I have mentioned that dad taught me to caponize at an early age and I hesitate to brag but I'm actually pretty good at it. I have big hands but my fingers are long and dexterous. In working with birds that are 5 to 6 weeks old, my record is pretty good but I think it will be a while before I attempt to work with very young cockerels again.

To make it short, I cut the vessel in two of the chicks...dispatched them immediately.

Two 'slips' that were banded in white and to new capons, banded in blue, all four put into the same brooder with the other chicks th keep them safe and known to the flock.

Not what I consider a success.

However, in my defense, I was in a bit of a rush and shouldn't have done them that particular day. Dad I put them back and began in a more relaxed time period, I MAY have done better. This experience has not put me off caponizing at 3 to 4 weeks as opposed to my usual 6 weeks. I intend to order 25 Austra-Whites in the spring and hone my skills.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I have the experimental chicks in a small cage where they can interact with their bretheren and not be picked on when they are returned to open population.

 

[Kassaundra]

SURGICAL RESULTS.

As promised, here are the dismal results of my effort to caponize very young Dominique cockerels. Not promising at this point.

I have mentioned that dad taught me to caponize at an early age and I hesitate to brag but I'm actually pretty good at it. I have big hands but my fingers are long and dexterous. In working with birds that are 5 to 6 weeks old, my record is pretty good but I think it will be a while before I attempt to work with very young cockerels again.

To make it short, I cut the vessel in two of the chicks...dispatched them immediately.

Two 'slips' that were banded in white and to new capons, banded in blue, all four put into the same brooder with the other chicks th keep them safe and known to the flock.

Not what I consider a success.

However, in my defense, I was in a bit of a rush and shouldn't have done them that particular day. Dad I put them back and began in a more relaxed time period, I MAY have done better. This experience has not put me off caponizing at 3 to 4 weeks as opposed to my usual 6 weeks. I intend to order 25 Austra-Whites in the spring and hone my skills.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I have the experimental chicks in a small cage where they can interact with their bretheren and not be picked on when they are returned to open population.

Sorry for your results, I prefer older boys (7 - 9 wks)

 

[Kassaundra]

Sometime back, I gave dad a tube of lidocaine Jel because he wanted to see what happened if he applied it before making the incision. He told me it didn't seem to help or hurt the birds but he was warned off that idea by someone on BYC.

They were not wrong, scroll down to the local anesthesia paragraph http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/surgery.html