BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Arielle]

Quote: I get what you are saying . . . . Most features in a bird or any animal is the result of many genes in effect.

In addition genes are located on strands of chromosomes and it is the whole chomosome that is replicated and divided, so it usually stays together as one strand BUToccassionally a cross over happens and genes can get swapped. THe genes for skull width a nd body width are on the same chromozome-- either one very strong over powering gene, or several modifying genes. THe old timers already knew the correlation.

That is why observation and mentors was and is a great learning tool.

Leg bone still has me stumped-- I know how it works in horses. but in chickens the bone is a different type-- the hollow bone so that is a big factor.

I'm at the beginning of chickendom and don't have a mentor at this point but I know basic genetic selection and how to selection and culling works, especially in horses, but need to devise a process for chickens that I can work with year over year.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Less than a month and counting!! You must be getting very excited Hellbender!!

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
I am working on a little science project and ran across these tidbits to share.

Here's quality explanation of the difference between prebiotics and probiotics.
Prebiotics vs Probiotics - Why Both Are Essential For Digestive Health http://digestivehealthguide.com/prebiotics-vs-probiotics/
===================
Basically this says that bad bacteria from the gut can get into the bloodstream and migrate to the capillaries of the bones causing lameness in poultry. That using the correct probiotic can interfere with this and reduce lameness in growing poultry
bacterial chondronecrosis with osteomyelitis = (BCO),
chondronecrosis : Necrosis of the cartilage, or the firm, rubbery tissue that cushions bones at joints.
osteomyelitis: an inflammation of bone and bone marrow (usually caused by bacterial infection)

Effect of multi-species probiotic on BCO
http://tinyurl.com/m6ocwzq
Conclusions
The results of these studies demonstrate that the feeding of the multispecies probiotic consistently reduced the incidence of clinical lameness in broilers raised on wire flooring in four statistically significant experiments. The most common cause of lameness, bacterial chondronecrosis with osteomyelitis (BCO), may be reduced by administering the probiotic prophylactically from the first day of rearing. The probiotic was shown to reduce the development of clinical lameness by interfering with bacterial translocation into sub-clinically damaged voids or clefts in the proximal femoral and tibial epiphyseal plates. These experiments indicate that bacterial translocation from the gastrointestinal tract is likely to be a significant route contributing to hematogenous infection. The multispecies probiotic PoultryStar

administered prophylactically from the first day of rearing can provide a plausible alternative to antibiotics for reducing the incidence of BCO.
-------------------------
Now here's an argument for soya meal in chick feed because of this naturally occurring prebiotic.

Folia Microbiologica
July 2010, Volume 55, Issue 4, pp 326-328
Naturally occurring prebiotic oligosaccharides in poultry feed mixtures
M. Grmanová, V. Rada, K. Sirotek, E. Vlková http://tinyurl.com/khhd8hg
===============

The first seven days of life. The Golden Days. A time to use one's talents to produce a more robust chick and better end product.

Best Regards,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

I get what you are saying . . . . Most features in a bird or any animal is the result of many genes in effect.

In addition genes are located on strands of chromosomes and it is the whole chomosome that is replicated and divided, so it usually stays together as one strand BUToccassionally a cross over happens and genes can get swapped. THe genes for skull width a nd body width are on the same chromozome-- either one very strong over powering gene, or several modifying genes. THe old timers already knew the correlation.

That is why observation and mentors was and is a great learning tool.

Leg bone still has me stumped-- I know how it works in horses. but in chickens the bone is a different type-- the hollow bone so that is a big factor.

I'm at the beginning of chickendom and don't have a mentor at this point but I know basic genetic selection and how to selection and culling works, especially in horses, but need to devise a process for chickens that I can work with year over year.

It is better to have a mentor, but I do not have one either. Some things we figure out along the way. We learn a lot from where we were wrong.

I would venture to say that a lot we post now, would seam like foolishness later.

My posts tend to be vague, because really all I am trying to share is how I come to look at this or that. Never really advising. Not qualified to do that. Only a few on this entire board that I would say is, and they are not right on everything.

Take anything I post as trying to stir more thinking and ideas. I consider everything I read, from the variety of perspectives. All I try to share is a perspective that I have come to. A perspective that I expect to evolve.

For example of head size and it's relationships. Size is width. length, height, and weight. There is a lot that contributes to that one section and the same for all sections. We are not putting pressure on single points, but a multitude in each section. Now what is best and when, is up to the owner. That I just how I have come to see it.

Concerning bone, all I want to see is that everything is in the right place, the right shape, and structurally sound. One of the things I have learned to do is watch the bird move. I hate to see a big bird clumsy on it's legs, or be weak on it's legs. I like to see sturdy, sound, and athletic. Legs is a pet peeve of mine. I drive myself batty watching my birds move.
And a bad eye drives me nuts. Nothing like a poorly shaped eye to ruin an otherwise good head. Or a eye that does not fill the socket, which makes the bird seam unfit to me.

When I look at pictures online, I am always trying to figure out if the picture is typical of the the bird stands and moves. The eyes jump out at me, so I do not have to examine them. Then I am looking at the body, picturing it with the neck/head, tail, and legs cut off and trying to undress it. Picturing it without the feathers.

A structurally sound bird with good balance is an appealing bird even if is a cross breed.

 

[draye]

Finally finished reading to this point. Very interesting read. I'm gong to try to start applying some of this to my flock.
Although I'm not really that concerned about size (as far as dual purpose goes), I decide when I can butcher and all sizes go. Little ones eat as well as the big ones.

Thanks for the welcome Hellbender. Nice looking son you have. My son is 18 (and he already knows it all, haha, didn't we all at 18) and going to school (diesel mechanics) in Oklahoma, not too far from where Kassaundra lives. He's my number four (and last) child. I almost raised a flock of children.

 

[3riverschick]

Regarding my earlier post on the prebiotic benefits of soya meal in poultry feed...
here's something interesting, soy and soya aren't the same thing.
Best,
Karen
Excerpt from URL below:
"Soy products are used extensively as dairy replacements for vegan, or strict plant consuming, eaters.
All soy products derive from the soybean. The soybean processes into different soy products through
various cooking methods. In fact, soy flour and soya powder are closely related in physical structure
but have different processing techniques.
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/info_86"02904_difference-soy-flour-soya-powder.html
====================

 

[Arielle]

Hi,
I am working on a little science project and ran across these tidbits to share.

Here's quality explanation of the difference between prebiotics and probiotics.
Prebiotics vs Probiotics - Why Both Are Essential For Digestive Health http://digestivehealthguide.com/prebiotics-vs-probiotics/
===================
Basically this says that bad bacteria from the gut can get into the bloodstream and migrate to the capillaries of the bones causing lameness in poultry. That using the correct probiotic can interfere with this and reduce lameness in growing poultry
bacterial chondronecrosis with osteomyelitis = (BCO),
chondronecrosis : Necrosis of the cartilage, or the firm, rubbery tissue that cushions bones at joints.
osteomyelitis: an inflammation of bone and bone marrow (usually caused by bacterial infection)

Effect of multi-species probiotic on BCO
http://tinyurl.com/m6ocwzq
Conclusions
The results of these studies demonstrate that the feeding of the multispecies probiotic consistently reduced the incidence of clinical lameness in broilers raised on wire flooring in four statistically significant experiments. The most common cause of lameness, bacterial chondronecrosis with osteomyelitis (BCO), may be reduced by administering the probiotic prophylactically from the first day of rearing. The probiotic was shown to reduce the development of clinical lameness by interfering with bacterial translocation into sub-clinically damaged voids or clefts in the proximal femoral and tibial epiphyseal plates. These experiments indicate that bacterial translocation from the gastrointestinal tract is likely to be a significant route contributing to hematogenous infection. The multispecies probiotic PoultryStar

administered prophylactically from the first day of rearing can provide a plausible alternative to antibiotics for reducing the incidence of BCO.
-------------------------
Now here's an argument for soya meal in chick feed because of this naturally occurring prebiotic.

Folia Microbiologica
July 2010, Volume 55, Issue 4, pp 326-328
Naturally occurring prebiotic oligosaccharides in poultry feed mixtures
M. Grmanová, V. Rada, K. Sirotek, E. Vlková http://tinyurl.com/khhd8hg
===============

The first seven days of life. The Golden Days. A time to use one's talents to produce a more robust chick and better end product.

Best Regards,
Karen

THanks for p osting this Karen.

A good reminder that feeding is more than proteins, vitamins, minerals and carbohydrates and fats. That the micronutrients are as important to good health.

FF is a good source of probiotics.

ANd probiotics are good for us humans too. I use braggs ACV in my salad dressing and probiotic capsules. Horses get probiotics in a ground grain formulation.

Lve the variety of topics you bring up Karen!

 

[3riverschick]

Respectfully requesting fellowlisters do not requote the phrase "The Golden Days" when replying. That way after we are done, searchers won't get a bazillion hits when the use BYC's "Search This thread" feature.
The Golden Days Part I - A project to develop a supplement regimen for neonatal poultry chicks.

Introduction

Hi,
I've decided to start sharing my science project on this list. I was going to use Heritage Large Fowl Phase II but I think this list is more appropriate. Have come to the point in life where I don't care if anyone reads the study. Those who care will read and to those who don't, it won't make or break your breeding season. I've been privately studying the neonatal G.I. tract in multiple species for 16 years now. Wrote a successful evidence-based protocol for puppies called "The Bellwether Neonate Protocol" , published in 2002. The result of 4 yrs. (1998-2002) and over 11,000 hours of research. The end result of the Protocol was to avoid puppy losses due to environmental challenges. It worked just fine by interdicting the developmental timeline with a carefully researched trio of supplements that gave the neonate puppy more of what it naturally needed to thrive. Creating a better foundation upon which its body systems could mature after birth.

The chick is no different from the neonate puppy in that its G.I tract goes thru a period of rapid development during the first days of life. In the puppy, the 1st 18 hours are The Golden Hours for enhancing the immune system. In the chick The Golden Days are the 1st seven days of life. It is during these days that we can interdict the developmental timeline with carefully researched and approved supplements to help create a better foundation upon which the chicks body systems will mature. To understand this we need to change our focus on the chicks. We are not looking at a fluffy ball of down. We are looking at a developing G.I. tract which is running around the brooder. ( go ahead, get the laughter over with now. You will appreciate this viewpoint later) In the neonate, with few exceptions, the G.I. tract is most important to health and development now and later in life. A healthy, robust G.I. tract in the chick produces a better end product, whether it be meat or eggs.

This study will take several weeks to finish, depending on the difficulty of finding the info, collating it, and getting approval of conclusions from noted experts in the poultry science field. In the end, there should be a simple, inexpensive protocol for interdicting the developmental timeline in neonatal chicks with a carefully selected trio of supplements which will help create a better foundation upon which the chick's body systems can mature. Resulting in more robust chicks with better resistances to illness and a better end product for the raiser.
Note this is not an end run around breeding for vigor. That is a whole 'nother subject. Instead, this project is an idea to make the most of what the chick has already been granted in its genetics. Giving the chick what it naturally needs to make the most of its genetic potential.
In all these years of study, the article below is the finest synopsis I have ever read on the 1st few days of life in a species. The synopsis is not dependent on one's acceptance or approval of the product listed at the end. The product can be incorporated into the article ( or not) without changing the article's meaning. A rare occurrence on product-based articles.

First week - getting the best possible start for chicks
By: Andrew Robertson (Poultry Technical Manager, BIOMIN)
http://tinyurl.com/lyu2lkd

To make posts on the project easier to find later on with the BYC "search this thread" feature , the posts will be titled "The Golden Days" Part I,2,3, etc.
Best Regards,
Karen


.

 

[hellbender]

Thread creator : if you do not want this study on this list, tell me now and I will move it to its own thread. No hard feelings.

Hi,
I've decided to start sharing my science project on this list. I was going to use Heritage Large Fowl Phase II but I think this list is more appropriate. Have come to the point in life where I don't care if anyone reads the study. Those who care will read and to those who don't, it won't make or break your breeding season. I've been privately studying the neonatal G.I. tract in multiple species for 16 years now. Wrote a successful evidence-based protocol for puppies called "The Bellwether Neonate Protocol" , published in 2002. The result of 4 yrs. (1998-2002) and over 11,000 hours of research. The end result of the Protocol was to avoid puppy losses due to environmental challenges. It worked just fine by interdicting the developmental timeline with a carefully researched trio of supplements that gave the neonate puppy more of what it naturally needed to thrive. Creating a better foundation upon which its body systems could mature after birth.

The chick is no different from the neonate puppy in that its G.I tract goes thru a period of rapid development during the first days of life. In the puppy, the 1st 18 hours are The Golden Hours for enhancing the immune system. In the chick The Golden Days are the 1st seven days of life. It is during these days that we can interdict the developmental timeline with carefully researched and approved supplements to help create a better foundation upon which the chicks body systems will mature. To understand this we need to change our focus on the chicks. We are not looking at a fluffy ball of down. We are looking at a developing G.I. tract which is running around the brooder. ( go ahead, get the laughter over with now. You will appreciate this viewpoint later) In the neonate, with few exceptions, the G.I. tract is most important to health and development now and later in life. A healthy, robust G.I. tract in the chick produces a better end product, whether it be meat or eggs.

This study will take several weeks to finish, depending on the difficulty of finding the info, collating it, and getting approval of conclusions from noted experts in the poultry science field. In the end, there should be a simple, inexpensive protocol for interdicting the developmental timeline in neonatal chicks with a carefully selected trio of supplements which will help create a better foundation upon which the chick's body systems can mature. Resulting in more robust chicks with better resistances to illness and a better end product for the raiser.
Note this is not an end run around breeding for vigor. That is a whole 'nother subject. Instead, this project is an idea to make the most of what the chick has already been granted in its genetics. Giving the chick what it naturally needs to make the most of its genetic potential.
In all these years of study, the article below is the finest synopsis I have ever read on the 1st few days of life in a species. The synopsis is not dependent on one's acceptance or approval of the product listed at the end. The product can be incorporated into the article ( or not) without changing the article's meaning. A rare occurrence on product-based articles.

First week - getting the best possible start for chicks
By: Andrew Robertson (Poultry Technical Manager, BIOMIN)
http://tinyurl.com/lyu2lkd

To make posts on the project easier to find later on with the BYC "search this thread" feature , the posts will be titled "The Golden Days" Part I,2,3, etc.
Best Regards,
Karen


.

Post away...very interesting content!

 

[3riverschick]

okay thank you. It takes a lot of time to do the research so it may be a day or so between posts.
Best,
Karen