BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

All good, protein levels are discussed far more frequently, because it's simpler. There's so much that goes into nutrition it boggles the mind and is easy to go cross-eyed and get lost in it. We're so far ahead of the what they had to put up with in the past it's almost alarming.

 

[BGMatt]

Thank you for the examples--- it seemed to me that the different breeds deveoped out of different circumstances and what is right for one breed may not work for another breed. Just hard to know without a mentor to guide, or fall back on trial and error.


In general I do have concerns for a breed tht needs very high protein. Meaning how can that be provided in a homesteading environment? Is it the result of a thriving and well to do homestead that has extra high protein sources available as "leftovers" or "waste" to feed the chicks? The result of a multipurpose farm with other protein sources available?

Hellbender got me thinking of all the animal "waste" that is recycled thru his birds and I do wonder if some breeds perhaps like the buckeye was developed with those resources to support the growth. I can only wonder as I don't know of any documentation.

Very simply. Extra table scraps, extra eggs cooked and fed back, sprouted grains triple the protein in them. Protein is easy to find. Best advice if you're interested in best performance though, is to skip all the additions to the diet, and skip all the home recipes (and the commercial junk for that matter), and go out, find someone with an education (a real degree) in animal nutrition and work with them on developing a complete and balanced diet for the birds. I can't tell you how huge of a difference this makes. I'll try this fall to get some comparison shots between my birds and people that have my stock but feed either off the shelf diets or "home blends" etc.

Edit: The commercial blended feed is designed for today's hybrid chicken that is bred to thrive on vegetarian, low cost diets. That's why if you really want to see what your birds are capable of, you need to work with a nutritionist (the more recent their education the better likely), and make sure you have properly balanced all the amino acids, micronutrients as well as the macros, etc.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Sorry I was the one delving into protein. I was particularly interested in protein because the breeder of my buckeyes was very specific about the needs of the breed. And it was a high protein (27% or higher) for the first 8 weeks , then drop it down. I have to assume that he felt that was very important for me to know to have good success with my chicks. So out of respect for his experience I will follow his guidence.

THere is a great deal to nutrition. Far beyond what I learned working on my animal science degree with many classes on nutrition and feed formulation. I recently started rereading my ruminant nutrition book again after 30 years and my head was spinning over the advanced chemistry. It was a graduate class opened to the undergrads. Easy then when all the info was fresh. BUT all classes were designed for commercial production. Learning how to apply it to homesteading or heritage breeds is a new twist.

In regards to Ca/P this is the first time I have seen anyuone bring it up for discussion. I was thinking about it yesterday. We provide extra Ca via oyster shells or feed back egg shells, but no one mentions the need for P.

What would be a natural source for a chick? FOr horses and sheep, grasses and legumes are the source. OTher sources?

 

[ronott1]

Sorry I was the one delving into protein. I was particularly interested in protein because the breeder of my buckeyes was very specific about the needs of the breed. And it was a high protein (27% or higher) for the first 8 weeks , then drop it down. I have to assume that he felt that was very important for me to know to have good success with my chicks. So out of respect for his experience I will follow his guidence.

THere is a great deal to nutrition. Far beyond what I learned working on my animal science degree with many classes on nutrition and feed formulation. I recently started rereading my ruminant nutrition book again after 30 years and my head was spinning over the advanced chemistry. It was a graduate class opened to the undergrads. Easy then when all the info was fresh. BUT all classes were designed for commercial production. Learning how to apply it to homesteading or heritage breeds is a new twist.

In regards to Ca/P this is the first time I have seen anyuone bring it up for discussion. I was thinking about it yesterday. We provide extra Ca via oyster shells or feed back egg shells, but no one mentions the need for P.

What would be a natural source for a chick? FOr horses and sheep, grasses and legumes are the source. OTher sources?

The ratio has to be correct because if it is off, the phosphorous will leach out the calcium and the bones will go mushy.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: lol do you mean that with out sufficient phosphorus the bones give up their supply and the bone soften?? I do know the calcium easily moves in and out of bone in poultry as a source for shell making. The ratio should be 1.0 to 1.5 to 1 generally speaking. OTherwise bone growth gets messed up. WIth more calcium needed during egg laying

I was wondering where my Feeds book is-- it is somewhere packed away--gotta find it.

 

[ronott1]

lol do you mean that with out sufficient phosphorus the bones give up their supply and the bone soften?? I do know the calcium easily moves in and out of bone in poultry as a source for shell making. The ratio should be 1.0 to 1.5 to 1 generally speaking. OTherwise bone growth gets messed up. WIth more calcium needed during egg laying

I was wondering where my Feeds book is-- it is somewhere packed away--gotta find it.

It is weird. from what I read, too much prosperous with too little calcium lead to chicken bones being soft.

Chicken bones are not like human bones. They are light and airy yet still strong. A chicken would weigh a lot more if it had bones like humans have.

A little bit is good but a lot is not better--kind of like the recent discussion with egg turning and shipped eggs.

 

[hellbender]

It is weird. from what I read, too much prosperous with too little calcium lead to chicken bones being soft.

Chicken bones are not like human bones. They are light and airy yet still strong. A chicken would weigh a lot more if it had bones like humans have.

A little bit is good but a lot is not better--kind of like the recent discussion with egg turning and shipped eggs.

Theoretically, the ratio mentioned by Arielle are pretty much what I've read too but from my experience, there does seem to me some wiggle-room

It's known by almost all who read the threads that I feed my bird a somewhat unusual diet with ever changing quantities of the parts but not the quality of those parts. I have no lab or technicians but the birds never have any bone problems that affect their usefulness nor their apparent good health ....up the age of 4 years when all are culled.

 

[ronott1]

Theoretically, the ratio mentioned by Arielle are pretty much what I've read too but from my experience, there does seem to me some wiggle-room

It's known by almost all who read the threads that I feed my bird a somewhat unusual diet with ever changing quantities of the parts but not the quality of those parts. I have no lab or technicians but the birds never have any bone problems that affect their usefulness nor their apparent good health ....up the age of 4 years when all are culled.

The ratios sound correct that arielle posted.

Your feed recipe is amazing!

 

[southernmomma]

The ratios sound correct that arielle posted.

Your feed recipe is amazing!

Hellbender, would you mind directing me to threads where your feeding regimen is discussed or mentioned? I found your posts in the Heritage Fowl ll thread regarding pressure cooking meats interesting and useful--I'd like to learn more.

Thanks,
M

edited because regime and regimen are two very different things!

 

[hellbender]

Hellbender, would you mind directing me to threads where your feeding regime is discussed or mentioned? I found your posts in the Heritage Fowl ll thread regarding pressure cooking meats interesting and useful--I'd like to learn more.

Thanks,
M

I don't think I've ever posted anything in any depth as to the actual constitution of the daily feed mixture. If you are really interested...give me a day or two and I'll see if I can draw something up and I will send it to you by PM...I've already stirred up the bubble gum crowd enough for awhile. Thank you for your interest.

RON

EDIT. dratted spelling ....arthritic fingers are not so nimble anymore!