BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I need some input folks---

I have speckled sussex chosen for practical utility traits and are far from SOP. Which makes them very tough to work with.

For now I am keeping the old orginal male in case I completely screw up-- hate the bugger as he attacks but he is a diligent guard freeranging all day, so I forgive him, until I have good replacements.

9 cckls survived the winter. 1 recently injured and not improving yet = cull. I handled all 8 remaining males. THese were late summer hatched.

5 are noticeably larger than the others.
3 smaller boys which are also a bit younger ( yah , I know, exact ages would be helpful here--noted)

I am confused. THe 5 larger boys have bigger keels but the meat doesn't fill out to keel. Feels like a V.
The 3 other boys have a smaller keel and feel like a U, with the meat rounding down to the keel better.

A filled out keel is good, and a bigger keel is good but what do I pick for improvement? One of each??
Or is this an age thing?

ANy insight is appreciated. Pot is heating up.

I am not anti hatchery, mostly, so take this as you will.

They are not all of the same, but selection is not much of what happens with hatchery birds. Utility or other wise. It is merely about reproducing quantity. The more prolific birds are perpetuated almost by default.

First kill the unruly male. No reason to perpetuate that. No fun in watching your back. You will have what you tolerate. If it was me, he would be fertilizing a future tree. You can have a "flock watcher" that you do not have to watch. The trait is highly heritable.

Sounds like the difference between the five and the three is that they are at a different stage of growth. Remember when I was talking about the growth curve. The younger are closer to the curve, and the older are farther back down the hill. They will fill out that frame (the five) a bit better in time, but will be tough to eat then.

That is where I get saying it is not just the size they eventually get to, but also HOW they grow out and flesh out. How they flesh out before they hit the stag stage matters.

Keep watching them and you will see what I am saying. Especially as you can compare them to experiences with other strains. I am not doing a good job articulating what I am trying to say, but it will make more sense somewhere along the line.

Do not compare the three to the five. Just cannot intelligently do it, concerning size and flesh.

I would be tempted to keep the best of the three and the best of the five.

In the mean time, I would find a good Standard bred trio. I would be tempted to cross them, and then go back to the pure Standard bred birds. On the male side and female side making two families. I would take it from there with the 3/4 birds. You would have the opportunity to have good sized, and productive birds and the variability to choose as you please along the way. I would run the Standard Bred birds pure, until you got the others where you think that you can get them where you want them.

 

[gjensen]

George I pretty much agree with you.

That does not happen often, LOL.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: LOL. Ron, as I understand your rabbit breeding, the answer is both. ANd shoot for a 3/4 of the meaty and 1/4 of the larger. Assuming you use the New Zealand for it's size.

Pot is boiling . . . others chiming in???

 

[call ducks]

I need some input folks---

I have speckled sussex chosen for practical utility traits and are far from SOP. Which makes them very tough to work with.

For now I am keeping the old orginal male in case I completely screw up-- hate the bugger as he attacks but he is a diligent guard freeranging all day, so I forgive him, until I have good replacements.

9 cckls survived the winter. 1 recently injured and not improving yet = cull. I handled all 8 remaining males. THese were late summer hatched.

5 are noticeably larger than the others.
3 smaller boys which are also a bit younger ( yah , I know, exact ages would be helpful here--noted)

I am confused. THe 5 larger boys have bigger keels but the meat doesn't fill out to keel. Feels like a V.
The 3 other boys have a smaller keel and feel like a U, with the meat rounding down to the keel better.

A filled out keel is good, and a bigger keel is good but what do I pick for improvement? One of each??
Or is this an age thing?

ANy insight is appreciated. Pot is heating up.

Sussex should have a long and deep keel. I would keep one of each and do two crossings one with each k and see what the results are.

 

[hellbender]

LOL. Ron, as I understand your rabbit breeding, the answer is both. ANd shoot for a 3/4 of the meaty and 1/4 of the larger. Assuming you use the New Zealand for it's size.

Pot is boiling . . . others chiming in???

I might be getting into trouble here but my staunch belief is that the Sussex is more of a meat breed that will lay some eggs, more as pullets and two or three per week as mature hens. I was also ASSUMING you are using this breed essentially as a meat bird....thus, the smaller yet meatier birds would be the ticket.

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Sussex are more of a meat bird... However they should still lay good. Sussex are bred differently today than they were in Sussex England, I mean totally different.

 

[hellbender]

Sussex are more of a meat bird... However they should still lay good. Sussex are bred differently today than they were in Sussex England, I mean totally different.

This is where we hit the brick wall. Breeders trying to have their birds be all thing to all people. Right back to my contention that any bird that is bred to the SOP will be a fine looking chicken but it will not be a reliably egg producer nor a good meat bird. I guess you could say they are reliably...unreliable.

These Sussex chickens of today, that are bred totally different from those in Sussex England...are the correctly called a Heritage Breed?

 

[Arielle]

Quote: You are right ROn that the SS is supposed to be a meat breed. However, the big hatcheries have turned it into a meatless egg machine ( for a sussex). I am playing around with trying to improve the SS that I have as I was able to get a few someone was working on for a few years. I just love their all day foraging and huslting for food.

I want meat on the culls.

I had planned to save 2 of the meatier cckl, but a third blasted past me as I was reaching for him to give him one more review. He's staying. THat is 3 meatier boys.

ANd I kept two of the larger type.

I was a little surprised to see the carcass without the feathers. Meatier at the area above the keel. BUt none were as good as the boy I culled earlier in the week. I regret that now. Haste . . . and all that.

I was also suprised that the white skin becomes yellow when it dries. I wonder if that is the effect of the grass they eat in abundance? It had me looking at all the cckls for white skin. Terrified that somehow a yellow skinne gene had entered the gene pool. BUt all were whiteskinned.

My realization today is that it is too bad that so many of us have not been able to learn since childhood how to raise good poultry. So much could have learned from a chicken savy adult. I feel like I am re-creating the wheel.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Ironically, I would prefer a bird that is meaty and lays fewer eggs 3 a week is still a lot of eggs for my family. ANd if it means the girls can hustle most of their food off the land, then I am ok with a lower production of eggs. However my hatchery stock is just the opposite.

I don't think chickens were meant to do both. Primarily one or another. ONly a couple breeds can do both. Namely BR and NH are credited with that.

When I bought the hatchery stock I knew I was getting layers. ANd when only pullets are purchased then I get a fine bunch of layers. HOwever my goals changed when I ran into BOb blosl are few times here on BYC . . . . . my goals changed.

IT is my understanding that even the SOP quality breeders of SS fall short of meat excellence.( Per the SQ SS thread) BUt are far bettter than hatchery stock. Having crappy birds with a lot wrong makes selection rather difficult. If I can focus on meat traits, and keep a number of males, then I can have each male contribute something positive to the whole. I don't see a trio working in this case.

Ron, as forthe term heritage, to me it simply means not the commonly bred factory stock of today. Perhaps that the chicken is so maliable to be selected to fit its current home is the savior of the chicken. If the NH has been so morphed that the german bred looks different than the american . . . then the breeders accoomplished their own goals. Neither right or wrong. HOwever, which breeds can still put food ont he table like they used to-- that is my criteria. THe SS isn't even close to what it should be IMO--maybe in England?? IDK-- maybe those are long gone to and are just SOP birds.

Sorry for the spew.

 

[gjensen]

That is right. A Sussex is long and deep and wide. Like a cinder block tilted on a slight angle. If it is not, it is not a Sussex. It just colored like one. That is what makes them a good meat bird and gives them capacity to be reliable layers. That is defined in the Standard. I have never seen a good Sussex on this board.

It is up to the breeder to select for rate of growth, molt characteristics, POL, lay rate etc. The Standard was written when that knowledge was common, and expected. Today we do not know how. We just quote books from the past, and Google it.

When I say we, I am speaking generally and not specifically. Of course there is exceptions.

The Standard defines the breed or variety and sets that Standard. It does not breed the bird or tell us how to breed the bird. It assumes that we do and do know.

When these breeds were coming into their own, we actually used the birds. These things were more widely accepted and expected.

No different than the characteristics that define and enable a good German Shepherd, but only some use them to do what they were created to do. If I am concerned about performance, I am going to the trainer that has good typed German Shepherds with a reputation.

It is difficult to make judgments comparing different age groups. My NHs will flesh out at the peak of their growth curve, and then get leggy and "stretch out", and then fill out their adult frame. This stage is much more gradual than the initial rush to the top.
I call this leggy stage the stag stage. Not an exactly accurate label, but how I describe them. I think the game breeders use that term a bit different.