BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Beekissed]

When looking at the commercial feeds, know that the least amt of protein is in the feed to get the job done. BECAUSE protein is the most expensive component of feed. Whether grain source or meat source.

IMO I am not sure I buy into there being a limit to how much protein an animal can eat. In that I would look to the normal "wild " animal intake as a basis. What does a wild ground dwelling bird "normally" eat? ( Talking chickens here.) OR if ducks, what a wild duck eats. Some one reminded me that seeds are an important basis of a chicken's diet.

Having said this,in regards to humans, I know the people of the far north traditionally ate a diet primarily of fats and protein ALL the time.Think whale, seal, polar bear, and caribou. The veg was limited to the lichen from the rumen of the caribou. ( No food wasted in a traditional diet.) WHen I am working to shed a few unwanted fat pounds, I switch to a very similar diet. ANd I know of many many people who also follow this eating program safely as well. I would be comfortable eating a diet soley of wild caught meat as this was a documented study of a year done MANY years ago. Most people dont know, or dont question, that there is NO nutritional requirement for carbohydrates in the human diet. What we do gain by eating grains, and other carb sources like potatoes, beets,turnips etc, is a source of calories and wonderful vitamins and minerals. But the carbs themselves are not required for survival. Carbs are not an essential nutrient for humans. Fats and proteins are, as well as a slew of vitamins and minerals.

PS. WHo noticed that a beagle won Westminster. Miss P !!

I think it only fair to point out that the people of the far north were laboring hard each day to hunt and prepare this meat and blubber for consumption, fuel and clothing for the better part of the year and the rest of the time were using it to keep warm, as well as for activity during cold weather...the level of energy expended is important in that equation. And they had more than lichen, they had berries in season. It also mattered what TYPE of animal proteins were consumed...some are more digestible, better utilized and less harmful than others.

Wild birds? Their activity levels to even get the foods they consume and feed their young so far outstrip our chicken's daily activity as to be laughable, so their bodies require a higher intake.

"Switching to that kind of diet" temporarily and maintaining it on a daily basis for the rest of your life are two different things...one is short term, one is long term. There are many studies done on the effects of a long term high protein diet that does not balance out other nutrients...one being ketoacidosis, another being osteoporosis, as well as renal disease.

You can do an experiment on it and start feeding your flock on calf manna, distillers grains or even fish/meat meal only for the next several months and let us know what the effects of it are, good, bad or no effect at all and you could help us all know for sure on the matter. That would be a cool experiment!

 

[bnjrob]

Feel the keel. Feel them before you butcher them, and you will start seeing a correlation. It took me a bit to tell what was too much. It is easier to feel what is not enough.

You are right. Processing them at the end of the season is revealing.

A lot of how fat is laid on is genetic. Some are more prone to intra-abdominal fat. Guess it points back to knowing our birds. They are not all the same.

I'll have to do that. So far, we have had mostly lean birds without fat under the skin. These 5 month old cockerels we just butchered recently were the first birds we've had that had a sizeable amount of fat under the skin. They were given corn like all the others, but they were in a smaller pen, and were also much more calm and rarely fought with each other compared to the cocks we butchered at the same time. The cocks were in a much larger pen and were frequently sparring, they didn't even have much intra-abdominal fat and NO fat under the skin. It has been so fascinating to see how we can do the same things to all the birds, yet each pen has slightly different variables so that they react differently to the husbandry.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:I have used soaked dog food for almost 15 yrs now. It has high protein and its animal protein. It has high fat. Immediatly after pouring water over the amount I'm soaking you can see the fat (grease) start floating I do this twice a week which equals 4 feedings

Ps. I was rooting for the buff cocker spaniel

I have changed the dog food and cat food that I feed. SInce there has been some question as to the quality of the feeds. Ingredients can be hidden and not listed; and most recently the number of dogs and cats whose deaths have been attibuted to CHina imported feed. Just made me think twice, so I share more of my chicken and duck with my old cats. ps. I woke up to find out that I missed the whole show!!!!! Darn it!!!

 

[Arielle]

Quote:I have used soaked dog food for almost 15 yrs now. It has high protein and its animal protein. It has high fat. Immediatly after pouring water over the amount I'm soaking you can see the fat (grease) start floating I do this twice a week which equals 4 feedings

Ps. I was rooting for the buff cocker spaniel


Quote:
lol I drew the line at the guineas!!! I like quiet. Which also played an important part in selecting muscovy instead of other ducks. I wil NOT have cattle-- no no no. lol I'll buy from the local dairy first and support their efforts. All for the honey bees!! THough it is hard to watch the houses going up. THe land was cleared a few years ago, then the economy crashed and all work stopped. Noticed the road was not plowed so that is surely slowing construction, ( yeay), some 40+ houses planned. Sure wish folks would think of where they will get their food. . . . . Reminds me that when we looked for land, one town, NOrton,MA, had a minimum of 5 acres lots. Wish other towns would follow.

 

[bnjrob]

Quote:

Quote:



lol I drew the line at the guineas!!! I like quiet. Which also played an important part in selecting muscovy instead of other ducks. I wil NOT have cattle-- no no no. lol I'll buy from the local dairy first and support their efforts. All for the honey bees!! THough it is hard to watch the houses going up. THe land was cleared a few years ago, then the economy crashed and all work stopped. Noticed the road was not plowed so that is surely slowing construction, ( yeay), some 40+ houses planned. Sure wish folks would think of where they will get their food. . . . .

Reminds me that when we looked for land, one town, NOrton,MA, had a minimum of 5 acres lots. Wish other towns would follow.

That is one reason why I had not gotten guineas yet, the noise. But the chickens just can't keep up with the grasshoppers and I am less attached to the guineas, so even though it will bother me to have them at risk for becoming coyote lunch, I need them to help control the grasshopper plague.

I like the idea of 5 acre minimums.

 

[Beer can]

WOW! Learning tons, glad I became a BYC member. When I got the mix batch along with the chicks we wanted our plan was to butcher them. They were mostly cockerels, cochins, rir, welsummers, polish,leghorn.
I fed them all grower pellet I believe 18%. And lots of free cottage cheese, free ground up whole fish, free duckweed full of tadpoles baby frogs and leeches. Plus free ranged. I butchered them at 16 or 18 weeks ? when they started being mean to the pullets and ganging up on the alpha cockerel a welsummer I planed on keeping because he was the prettiest and most sop out of the wellies. He was kicking their butts when it was one on one, luckily for him he was smart enough to run when they ganged up. OFF with their heads! Avg. weight was 3.5lbs dressed. Largest was the rir 4.2, I was suprised he was heavier than the cochins. Smallest was the polish, they were around 2.2lbs. There was hardly any fat on them but of course they were young active birds.

 

[Beer can]

I love guineas!!! Unfortunately mine liked to play in the road, even though it was a hundred yards plus from the coop.

 

[gjensen]

I'll have to do that. So far, we have had mostly lean birds without fat under the skin. These 5 month old cockerels we just butchered recently were the first birds we've had that had a sizeable amount of fat under the skin. They were given corn like all the others, but they were in a smaller pen, and were also much more calm and rarely fought with each other compared to the cocks we butchered at the same time. The cocks were in a much larger pen and were frequently sparring, they didn't even have much intra-abdominal fat and NO fat under the skin. It has been so fascinating to see how we can do the same things to all the birds, yet each pen has slightly different variables so that they react differently to the husbandry.

I have a similar example with my kids. My middle son puts on fat quickly and easily, where the other two at home stay skinny eating and doing the same things. Genetics play a role, and like you mentioned very slight variables. A reason why I neglect to rely on testimonials. There is a surprising amount of small variables to consider. Heck, my hens on the back of the property molt an entire week later than the front. Only 700' away. I have chalked it up to lighting, because of exposure.

Try feeling the keel bone. You might not find it helpful. I did not originally, but I kept reading about it, so I kept trying. The reason the keel bone is a good place to feel, is that it is so close to the surface. Once you feel too much fat there, there is too much already. It is a better marker for monitoring a bird's condition. It takes a long time to put too much on, and a long time for it to come off. We would have to starve them for it to come off fast.

Some breeds, as you know, used to be known for muscular fat. I always wondered how you would select for something like that. Hard to select for something, when you have to kill it to know. It always made me wonder if they did not first come across the characteristic incidentally.

 

[Arielle]

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[Beer can]

The breeds I've decided on for meat birds I'm thinking now might be harmed by to much protein after reading these comments. Jersey Giants and Langshans. I was thinking back to when I first became a BYC member and someone on the upstate NY thread posted pics of her new great dane puppy. I commented that I had had a boxer and fed him high protein large breed Eukanuba (pre wife and fam days I survived on ramen noodles and beer Lol) and he ended up ten pounds heavier and much more filled out than his two brothers that my friends had and fed cheap dog food. She said it was the worst thing you could do to a great dane, they needed a low protein diet, a special diet to help them grow slow, or they have all sorts of health issues. I looked it up and she was right. Now I'm thinking these giant birds might need the same idea being they take a long time to mature??