BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[neopolitancrazy]

In regards to fermented feed, I tried it and thought my birds did well on it, but didn't like the fermented crumble, (plus my husband constantly complained about the smell of fermented fish meal.) Also, with my work schedule, (12 to 24 hour shifts,) it is much more convenient to have large feeders of dry feed that are replenished on a weekly basis. I realize this leaves some available overnight to feed rodents, but I can't check on the chickens multiple times per day.

I totally believe the scientific research that supports probiotics in the diet of all non-ruminants, and all ruminants off pasture. Thank you, Beekissed, for drawing my attention to it with your "old-timers" thread. I can see that increased surface area in the small intestine, and increased health of the intestinal mucosa would have enormous and far-reaching benefits. I have decided to try a powdered probiotic called SuperDFM Poultry in their water. So far, it dissolves well in their water, not gunking up the nipple waterers.

I can't speak to the exact amount of protein my birds require as I recently changed breeds, and don't know how they will respond to my system. My previous breed, Dorkings, did phenomenally better on 30% protein than on 20%; other heritage breeds may do the same, I don't really know. However, SARE quotes white clover as being about 28% crude protein (http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center.../Text-Version/Legume-Cover-Crops/White-Clover.) The various sprouts seem to supply between 20 and 35% protein (http://www.healthyeatingadvisor.com/sprouts.html.) Freeze-dried mealworms exceed 50% protein, (http://www.amazon.com/Tasty-Worms-Freeze-Mealworms-Approximately/dp/B00L5PAZEA,) and dried black soldier fly prepupae apparently run ~ 40-44% protein, (http://www.feedipedia.org/node/16388.) It appears to me that a chicken's natural summer diet is quite high in protein. I am sticking with the 30% protein ration I currently use until I see that the chicks have problems with it. If they have problems I will switch to 20%. Either way, I get lots of high-N fertilizer to improve my sandy soil.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[Arielle]

Quote:
George, I have often thought about the latter paragraph. How to evaluate chickens? THis is my current line of thinking: In some meat classes at fairs, the lambs are still butchered for comparison. My though extends to butchering half of a given group of meat animals to evaluate and compare to another group. Is the amt of meat more? Where is the fat laid down? Given that so many birds were raised for the market before 1930, I'm betting that the qualities of the carcass was well known to the producer then. And selections was based on who had influence over the "product". . . was the "marbled" meat prefferred, or not. Was the "backfat" prefered or not. THe history of the hog perhaps is a reasonable example to compare. Originally hogs were needed for their fat as well as their meat. THese were lard hogs. THen when production needed to change, pressed oils were coming available, and lard was not needed as much, a leaner hog with greater muscle mass was developed. I'm betting the benefit of testing a new boar by crossing him to several sows, then raising up the piglets and then butchering half to evaluate the carcass to decide if the remaining littermates were potentially valuable as breeding stock. I know of a hog farm in VT that has been selecting for grass fed hogs raised on pasture, and the typical commercial type hog doesnt work well compared to the multigenerational stock that he developed to go hand in hand with the feeding program he uses ( Grasses, root veg, pumpkins, chicken eggs, whey and spent grains from a brewery.) Back to chickens-- raise up a number and butcher half. Progress is slow; but could be done.

 

[gjensen]

When looking at the commercial feeds, know that the least amt of protein is in the feed to get the job done. BECAUSE protein is the most expensive component of feed. Whether grain source or meat source.

IMO I am not sure I buy into there being a limit to how much protein an animal can eat. In that I would look to the normal "wild " animal intake as a basis. What does a wild ground dwelling bird "normally" eat? ( Talking chickens here.) OR if ducks, what a wild duck eats. Some one reminded me that seeds are an important basis of a chicken's diet.

Having said this,in regards to humans, I know the people of the far north traditionally ate a diet primarily of fats and protein ALL the time.Think whale, seal, polar bear, and caribou. The veg was limited to the lichen from the rumen of the caribou. ( No food wasted in a traditional diet.) WHen I am working to shed a few unwanted fat pounds, I switch to a very similar diet. ANd I know of many many people who also follow this eating program safely as well. I would be comfortable eating a diet soley of wild caught meat as this was a documented study of a year done MANY years ago. Most people dont know, or dont question, that there is NO nutritional requirement for carbohydrates in the human diet. What we do gain by eating grains, and other carb sources like potatoes, beets,turnips etc, is a source of calories and wonderful vitamins and minerals. But the carbs themselves are not required for survival. Carbs are not an essential nutrient for humans. Fats and proteins are, as well as a slew of vitamins and minerals.

PS. WHo noticed that a beagle won Westminster. Miss P !!

You bring up some interesting ideas.

1. Carbs are certainly important to a human diet. There are recommendations in the qty of servings per day. There is also a difference between good enough and ideal. I also would not compare the traditional diets of people that died young, and had poor birthing rates. Surviving is one thing, and thriving is another. I would agree however, that we could afford to eat far less and do quite well. We do tend to eat too much. There is a biological reason however, that we crave carbs and fat.
Most of the extreme versions of 0 carb diets are ideological and faddish to be frank. We are better served by a balanced approach and catering our carb intake to our activity level. Ofcourse there ay be good reasons to take a radical approach for a time. Humans have proved to be adaptable. Chickens can survive off bamboo leaves or brown rice alone, but it does not mean it is ideal. Far from it.

2. Chickens are not people, and people are not chickens. Your resting heart rate is probably in the 60s. Maybe a little more or less. The chickens resting heart rate is 200+. Enough to kill some people. I have had my HR get to 220 a few times and I assure that it is not comfortable, and it wears you out. Athletes our age are pushing and maintaining their HR @ 150. The differences in respiration, digestion, etc. etc. are sharp and dramatic. An equivalence in dietary requirements cannot be had.

3. You are correct that the protein amounts in the bagged feeds is a relative minimum for them to do well. That does not mean that doubling it is the answer either. We tend to drift towards extremes. I assure you, and I encourage you to try it, that if you took two batches of buckeyes from the same parents, fed one 20% and another 28% that at one year (if all else was equal) they would be in the same place. One batch you spent more money on, and another less. Certainly we will see a difference @ 12-16 wks, so if they are broilers . . .good. Eating birds is another story. pullets is another, and breeders are another.
There is a tendency to see early results, and draw definite conclusions. It is a marathon and not a sprint. Where they are at in 12 wks. and in 52 wks. is two different things. Genetics will rule at 52wks.

 

[gjensen]

Quote:


George, I have often thought about the latter paragraph. How to evaluate chickens? THis is my current line of thinking: In some meat classes at fairs, the lambs are still butchered for comparison. My though extends to butchering half of a given group of meat animals to evaluate and compare to another group. Is the amt of meat more? Where is the fat laid down? Given that so many birds were raised for the market before 1930, I'm betting that the qualities of the carcass was well known to the producer then. And selections was based on who had influence over the "product". . . was the "marbled" meat prefferred, or not. Was the "backfat" prefered or not. THe history of the hog perhaps is a reasonable example to compare. Originally hogs were needed for their fat as well as their meat. THese were lard hogs. THen when production needed to change, pressed oils were coming available, and lard was not needed as much, a leaner hog with greater muscle mass was developed. I'm betting the benefit of testing a new boar by crossing him to several sows, then raising up the piglets and then butchering half to evaluate the carcass to decide if the remaining littermates were potentially valuable as breeding stock. I know of a hog farm in VT that has been selecting for grass fed hogs raised on pasture, and the typical commercial type hog doesnt work well compared to the multigenerational stock that he developed to go hand in hand with the feeding program he uses ( Grasses, root veg, pumpkins, chicken eggs, whey and spent grains from a brewery.) Back to chickens-- raise up a number and butcher half. Progress is slow; but could be done.

I agree that you would have to follow some similar approach to what you mention, and then refer back to the parents. I guess proving the parents by their offspring. I see something of this sort difficult for us. For me at least. . . .And I do not have one of those "good fat" breeds. LOL. None in this group dose, I do not think.

Most of the "good fat" breeds of birds were well before the 1930s. Some were very early.

I do not have a clue on evaluating hogs until they are on my dinner table. LOL.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
I agree! My youngsters often look rangy compared to other people's birds of the same breed and age, but I raise mine on foraged feeds primarily and use the formulated feeds as a supplement to that. As a consequence, those with birds raised in a coop and pen setting, on formulated feeds for the entirety of their lives and fed free choice, will see a more sleek, larger bird at a certain age. When they all mature, mine look the same as theirs and perform similarly as well, so genetics has more to do with their actual size at maturity~if feeds are not deficient in some manner~than does feed type and amount of proteins, IME.

I have found the same to be true of meat birds...it's not what or how much they are fed that determines their ultimate muscle content at maturity. If that were the case, we could all feed our boys up on some primo feed as youngsters and have NFL linebackers at the finish, regardless of their genetic traits.

 

[bnjrob]

The breeds I've decided on for meat birds I'm thinking now might be harmed by to much protein after reading these comments. Jersey Giants and Langshans. I was thinking back to when I first became a BYC member and someone on the upstate NY thread posted pics of her new great dane puppy. I commented that I had had a boxer and fed him high protein large breed Eukanuba (pre wife and fam days I survived on ramen noodles and beer Lol) and he ended up ten pounds heavier and much more filled out than his two brothers that my friends had and fed cheap dog food. She said it was the worst thing you could do to a great dane, they needed a low protein diet, a special diet to help them grow slow, or they have all sorts of health issues. I looked it up and she was right. Now I'm thinking these giant birds might need the same idea being they take a long time to mature??

Depends on how high of protein you were thinking of going and how fast you were thinking of pushing the birds.

We raise Javas. In the 1800s, many large black birds were called Javas, including Langshans sometimes, because there were both feather legged and clean shanked birds being called Javas back then. So there is a possibility of having original Langshan blood in the Java's ancestry. The standard weights for Langshans are the same as for Javas. The Java was one of the breeds used to create the Jersey Giant. Many people did not want the Jersey Giant accepted into the Standard because they said that it was nothing more than an oversized Java. There is old literature that says there were Javas in the 1800s that were as large as what the standard wt is for the Jersey Giant.

Knowing this about the breeds you have chosen and how we've done with our Javas, I would say that you do not want to skimp on the protein. Yes, too much growth too fast, like in the dog, is a problem. But I have not seen this occurring with our Javas. They develop HUGE bones to support their weight well. My husband is still in awe every time we roast one and have this huge leg that looks like a small turkey leg you'd get at a fair. And most of the males we butcher are the ones that are smaller than the standard weight.

We had been using a 24% chick feed from Tractor Supply labeled for quail/turkeys,/games but they have now dropped the protein level in it, so we are going to have to find a different chick feed for this year's chicks. For those older than 3 months, we use the Purina Flockraiser that is 21% protein. We have not had any problems with organ damage due to high protein or problems building a good skeletal structure. My husband is a veterinarian that sees birds as patients, so he knows what he is looking at when he butchers chickens. So don't be afraid to go a little higher than the usual 16-20% chick feed and layer feed that most folks buy for their backyard egg layers.

 

[Beer can]

Depends on how high of protein you were thinking of going and how fast you were thinking of pushing the birds.

We raise Javas. In the 1800s, many large black birds were called Javas, including Langshans sometimes, because there were both feather legged and clean shanked birds being called Javas back then. So there is a possibility of having original Langshan blood in the Java's ancestry. The standard weights for Langshans are the same as for Javas. The Java was one of the breeds used to create the Jersey Giant. Many people did not want the Jersey Giant accepted into the Standard because they said that it was nothing more than an oversized Java. There is old literature that says there were Javas in the 1800s that were as large as what the standard wt is for the Jersey Giant.

Knowing this about the breeds you have chosen and how we've done with our Javas, I would say that you do not want to skimp on the protein. Yes, too much growth too fast, like in the dog, is a problem. But I have not seen this occurring with our Javas. They develop HUGE bones to support their weight well. My husband is still in awe every time we roast one and have this huge leg that looks like a small turkey leg you'd get at a fair. And most of the males we butcher are the ones that are smaller than the standard weight.

We had been using a 24% chick feed from Tractor Supply labeled for quail/turkeys,/games but they have now dropped the protein level in it, so we are going to have to find a different chick feed for this year's chicks. For those older than 3 months, we use the Purina Flockraiser that is 21% protein. We have not had any problems with organ damage due to high protein or problems building a good skeletal structure. My husband is a veterinarian that sees birds as patients, so he knows what he is looking at when he butchers chickens. So don't be afraid to go a little higher than the usual 16-20% chick feed and layer feed that most folks buy for their backyard egg layers.

My quest is for the biggest capons possible. The reason I want to go high protein is not to speed up growth but to save $. Javas were a breed I seriously considered before deciding on White Jersey Giants and the Langshans. I still might try them down the road but at the moment the chicken math is really making the wife mad Lol! The part of preserving a breed appeals to me also, why I decided on the white giants, Javas are I think in the same category of it seems people don't notice or care, haven't hard of anybody having javas. Why I want to go with high protein is I would like to minimize the amount of feed I have to buy $$. Knowing they are a super slow growing breeds. The plan was; free range, tons of free cottage cheese, ground whole fish also free, duckweed free, and heck maybe a fresh road killed deer ground up Lol, anything to save $. I tried feeding the chickens I have when they were growing 40% solids condensed whey that I also get free high in protein also, mixed with their grower pellet feed, but they didn't seem to care much for it, so I stopped that.

 

[hellbender]

My quest is for the biggest capons possible. The reason I want to go high protein is not to speed up growth but to save $. Javas were a breed I seriously considered before deciding on White Jersey Giants and the Langshans. I still might try them down the road but at the moment the chicken math is really making the wife mad Lol! The part of preserving a breed appeals to me also, why I decided on the white giants, Javas are I think in the same category of it seems people don't notice or care, haven't hard of anybody having javas. Why I want to go with high protein is I would like to minimize the amount of feed I have to buy $$. Knowing they are a super slow growing breeds. The plan was; free range, tons of free cottage cheese, ground whole fish also free, duckweed free, and heck maybe a fresh road killed deer ground up Lol, anything to save $. I tried feeding the chickens I have when they were growing 40% solids condensed whey that I also get free high in protein also, mixed with their grower pellet feed, but they didn't seem to care much for it, so I stopped that.

I'll likely never re-post it but you should look up my Formula for chicken feed. It's on this thread somewhere.

 

[bnjrob]

My quest is for the biggest capons possible. The reason I want to go high protein is not to speed up growth but to save $. Javas were a breed I seriously considered before deciding on White Jersey Giants and the Langshans. I still might try them down the road but at the moment the chicken math is really making the wife mad Lol! The part of preserving a breed appeals to me also, why I decided on the white giants, Javas are I think in the same category of it seems people don't notice or care, haven't hard of anybody having javas. Why I want to go with high protein is I would like to minimize the amount of feed I have to buy $$. Knowing they are a super slow growing breeds. The plan was; free range, tons of free cottage cheese, ground whole fish also free, duckweed free, and heck maybe a fresh road killed deer ground up Lol, anything to save $. I tried feeding the chickens I have when they were growing 40% solids condensed whey that I also get free high in protein also, mixed with their grower pellet feed, but they didn't seem to care much for it, so I stopped that.

As long as they have access to some complete nutritional feed to make up for anything that they don't get from foraging and the other higher protein items you mentioned, I don't see why you can't try this, at least with some of them. Really, until you start raising them and see how it goes and what things look like when you butcher, you're just not gonna know how they will do. We've tweaked our feeding several times in the last few years as we watched everyone grow out and saw what the carcasses looked like. No reason not to try it out on some of them and see how it goes. Then you'd have something to compare rather than doing the entire flock that way and not being sure if what you were seeing was related to food, genetics, or something else.

 

[Heron's Nest Farm]

I've seen it in a few BO hens, wherein the fat deposits were so great around the vent and the eggs so big, that it was causing them to have prolapse when they laid. Usually those hens end up egg bound and that's what I would call "backed up".

Never happened to any bird in my flock as they don't get to overeat and they get plenty of exercise, but you read about eggbound hens on here all the time and one has to wonder if the fat from all that pampered eating is what is backing up those eggs. What else could prevent delivery of an egg in a hen that previously had no problems?

The only time I have ever had a bird get fat was the recently butchered Emily. The CornishX that got away at butcher time and went an additional 2 months. This points to a breed that really needs to be butchered young. I've never seen as much fat as you posted in those pics! Whew!!!

The breeds I've decided on for meat birds I'm thinking now might be harmed by to much protein after reading these comments. Jersey Giants and Langshans. I was thinking back to when I first became a BYC member and someone on the upstate NY thread posted pics of her new great dane puppy. I commented that I had had a boxer and fed him high protein large breed Eukanuba (pre wife and fam days I survived on ramen noodles and beer Lol) and he ended up ten pounds heavier and much more filled out than his two brothers that my friends had and fed cheap dog food. She said it was the worst thing you could do to a great dane, they needed a low protein diet, a special diet to help them grow slow, or they have all sorts of health issues. I looked it up and she was right. Now I'm thinking these giant birds might need the same idea being they take a long time to mature??

And this really says a lot, but mainly, "Where you start is not where you end." We don't know what we don't know. And the more we learn the more there seems to be to learn. But you can't focus on everything at once. I realize that I REALLY need to get focused reading all these posts. I need to decide where my strengths have been and go with those and then find some avenues to really learn to discern and get comfortable with!

Depends on how high of protein you were thinking of going and how fast you were thinking of pushing the birds.

We raise Javas. In the 1800s, many large black birds were called Javas, including Langshans sometimes, because there were both feather legged and clean shanked birds being called Javas back then. So there is a possibility of having original Langshan blood in the Java's ancestry. The standard weights for Langshans are the same as for Javas. The Java was one of the breeds used to create the Jersey Giant. Many people did not want the Jersey Giant accepted into the Standard because they said that it was nothing more than an oversized Java. There is old literature that says there were Javas in the 1800s that were as large as what the standard wt is for the Jersey Giant.

Knowing this about the breeds you have chosen and how we've done with our Javas, I would say that you do not want to skimp on the protein. Yes, too much growth too fast, like in the dog, is a problem. But I have not seen this occurring with our Javas. They develop HUGE bones to support their weight well. My husband is still in awe every time we roast one and have this huge leg that looks like a small turkey leg you'd get at a fair. And most of the males we butcher are the ones that are smaller than the standard weight.

We had been using a 24% chick feed from Tractor Supply labeled for quail/turkeys,/games but they have now dropped the protein level in it, so we are going to have to find a different chick feed for this year's chicks. For those older than 3 months, we use the Purina Flockraiser that is 21% protein. We have not had any problems with organ damage due to high protein or problems building a good skeletal structure. My husband is a veterinarian that sees birds as patients, so he knows what he is looking at when he butchers chickens. So don't be afraid to go a little higher than the usual 16-20% chick feed and layer feed that most folks buy for their backyard egg layers.

I thought this was a thoughtful post.

I'll likely never re-post it but you should look up my Formula for chicken feed. It's on this thread somewhere.

Oh no you don't!!! You can't tease us like that! Please find the post number....

All this being said, I just haven't had a lot of the problems I see on other threads. I have raised my birds very naturally with not too much fuss. I use a lot of herbs. I use fermentation and feed my girls curdled raw milk. I give sick birds a chance but I'm pretty quick to cull sickly birds. Don't get me wrong, I love chickens and I love working with them and paying attention to how they work. I just think a little pragmatism goes a long way with these animals. Keep roosts at 18" to avoid bumblefoot? Soak the hen in an epsom salts bath every hour, drying in between...? Ah, no.

Maybe on my pedigrees, but I'm going for vigor. Anyone with me on this?