BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by hellbender, Dec 27, 2013.

  1. bnjrob

    bnjrob Overrun With Chickens

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    What makes you say that stress is not a cause? Yes, having a blood vessel in the wrong place that leaks blood or completely breaks open will cause the blood spot, however I am unsure of why you are certain that stress is not related to blood spots at all.

    All of the information I have found on the subject (and not from BYC posts) indicates that there are a myriad of associated conditions found in birds that experience blood vessel breakage which cause blood spots. And any number of stressors on a hen's body can contribute to the loss of integrity in the wall of the blood vessel.
     
  2. ronott1

    ronott1 Daily Digest Guru Premium Member Project Manager

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    Runny eggs is a symptom of coryza. If the hens ever have it, then they will have runny eggs.

    Bloody eggs is from genetics usually. I have one penedesenca that has one every once in a while. She is managed the same as the rest of them. Meat spots are genetic too.
     
  3. gjensen

    gjensen Overrun With Chickens

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    This is a good video for demonstrating how an egg is formed. Understanding how an egg is formed is necessary for anyone other than some one that wants just a few layers.

    Like it or not, eggs is the primary reason we have farmed chickens through the years. They are egg producers, and we are breeding producers of eggs. For the breeds most of us have, the flesh is secondary and a by product of egg production. Eggs, eggs, eggs. I love eggs.

    Not much appeals to me more than a carton of uniformly shaped extra large eggs of high quality. No matter the shell color.

    Dual purpose largely meant salvageable hens. So that the hens had a value after they were past their prime, and the extra cockerels were not a waste product like they are in the commercial egg laying industry.

    Of American breeds an emphasis on meat was placed on the Delawares, New Hampshires, and Jersey Giants a capons. Some English breeds used to be better for roasters like Sussex and their cinder block sit flat on a plate shape. Even they were fattened in battery cages. The Sussex we have today are ornamental.

    It was common in the 40s -50s to raise NH cockerels etc. in battery cages, different than fattening cages. This limited exercise and they grew out faster and more tender. These were preferred over birds that were allowed to run the yard.

    I breed breeders, and egg producers. Flesh is a by product that I enjoy. I select for the characteristics that made these birds good dual purpose birds, being faithful to the breed. I have a little rhythm and process that I go through year to year. A process that evolved into being what it is today by experience and observation. Confirmed by what I have learned along the way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
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  4. gjensen

    gjensen Overrun With Chickens

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    I posted a video that is helpful. Stress does not cause blood spots or meat spots.
     
  5. gjensen

    gjensen Overrun With Chickens

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    A myriad of illnesses can that have an effect on the reproductive tract can cause it. Infectious bronchitis etc. He would know if he had coryza along the way.
     
  6. bnjrob

    bnjrob Overrun With Chickens

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    I'm aware of how eggs are formed and laid. In researching this issue when we first had blood spots occur in eggs several years ago, I did not find anything that states stress has nothing to do with blood spots as you are adamant about. All of the scientific poultry and veterinary information that I have access to, discusses that stress in a hen is often found in hens laying eggs with spots and is felt to be a contributing factor. Stress is not limited to what most humans think of when they think of being stressed. Another area I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
  7. ronott1

    ronott1 Daily Digest Guru Premium Member Project Manager

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    The live vaccines that they give hens in the commercial farms likely causes the runny eggs in store chicken eggs. Maybe his flock was vaccinated? Or exposed to vaccinated hens that pass on the infection. People run into this problem when they rescue hens from a commercial egg farm.

    From what I have read, commercial layer flocks worldwide are infected with respiratory illnesses. They do not show symptoms but it does lower lay rates in the flock.

    The good news is that there is new a vaccine that does not use live virus in it. They will not shed and will not have runny eggs because they do not actually get the illness--just the antibodies for it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
  8. gjensen

    gjensen Overrun With Chickens

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    Runny eggs in commercial flocks is from high levels of ammonia in the air (when ventilation is not well managed), and the age of the eggs when we get them.

    MG etc. is common in commercial laying flocks, and backyard flocks. The last time my birds were tested for it, I was surprised to learn they tested negative. I expected a positive because of how common it is. The more concerning diseases are going to be evident.

    Any disease agent that can damage the reproductive tract or severely inhibit the health of the bird can cause egg quality concerns. Infectious Bronchitis is famous for causing egg quality concerns, but I cannot imagine having this problem and not knowing.

    If it is a persistent problem over multiple birds, any ventilation (ammonia) concerns settled, the eggs were collected promptly, Not allowed to withstand temperatures well below freezing, the eggs were eaten fresh, they were visibly healthy, and their was still a persistent problem, then I would suspect a disease agent that has colonized the reproductive tract. I would cull a "guilty" individual and examine the reproductive tract for signs of disease. Bedding in poor condition could be a source of such an infection.

    Can cocci cause egg quality problems? E. Coli?

    Most of the time runny eggs are a problem in a backyard flock it is either due to old hens, older eggs, high heat, or bedding in poor condition without adequate ventilation.

    Similar to what others mentioned, I would assume it was management until I seen evidence otherwise.
     
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  9. gjensen

    gjensen Overrun With Chickens

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    Relax. It does not matter who is right and wrong.

    The video was posted for the general audience, and not for you. I was typing that as you were posting your response. I am sure that you already knew all that is on the video.

    The video does show how blood spots etc. are formed. Did you watch the video? It was done by Auburn University. I think.

    I have some commercial textbooks and none mention stress as a candidate. I have only heard it as speculation.

    Someone would have to demonstrate to me how stress causes blood spots in eggs, other than physical trauma, in order for me to buy into that stress causes blood spots. Perhaps you are correct. I would just have to see evidence other than speculation to believe it. Could possibly, and actually does is two different things to me. The burden of proof is to demonstrate that stress is a cause.
     
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  10. Beekissed

    Beekissed True BYC Addict

    From my experience, for whatever that is worth, I sort of see blood spots as naturally occurring things that just happen now and again but have no specific origin or cause that can be prevented or noted. If stress was a large factor in it, the battery layers should have blood spots at all times as I can imagine no more stressful life than the one they live. If that were the case, wouldn't that render their eggs pretty nigh unusable for commercial sale other than in pancake mixes and such?

    I don't often see them in my eggs but down through the years there have been certain birds that were more prone to throw one or they seemed more evident in an old hen's eggs than when she was a younger layer. I have one such old hen in my flock now and if I get a blood spot at all on occasion, they are always in her eggs. I don't think she had that problem when she was younger or I would have picked up on it, as she has a very distinctive egg color pattern.

    If they resulted from mating trauma I think I'd see them more frequently as that is an ongoing process and I usually just have the one male doing the breeding, using the same style and force.
     

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