BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by hellbender, Dec 27, 2013.

  1. ronott1

    ronott1 Daily Digest Guru Premium Member Project Manager

    Thanks for helping with the management techniques that can cause the runny egg problem!

    This is a great source of information. Working on management is the best way to go about things.
     
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  2. Beekissed

    Beekissed True BYC Addict

    I had never heard of high ammonia levels being a cause for egg changes. What is the science behind that?
     
  3. bnjrob

    bnjrob Overrun With Chickens

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    You assume that I am upset with you. I am not. You have simply not shown me evidence of why you are adamant that some sort of stress is not a cause. You and I both know that for every study out there, you will find one or more studies that contradict the first study. It's up to the individual person to determine what information holds merit and then they can act accordingly . I know what I have found in my research and have made an opinion based on that information, as you obviously have based on your research.
     
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  4. bnjrob

    bnjrob Overrun With Chickens

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    Some of the info I have read regarding the commercial eggs is that some companies will candle the eggs to get rid of those that have blood or meat spots in them. If that is true, then it could account for not seeing them very often in commercial eggs. Or maybe those commercial birds have been bred so long that they can now withstand that kind of stress so it isn't seen in their egg quality like you might find if you put farm chicken into that situation. Who knows?

    In the case of what I think you're thinking about in a commercial laying flock, that definition of *stress* caused by small quarters would be closer to using the human definition of being *stressed out* rather than other ways that an organism experiences stress. Stress can be anything that causes a need to readjust and adapt to something - like a change in temperature, weather, not having enough water, being chased, fighting off an illness, trying to heal an injury, not getting the proper nutrition. Stress can be an ambiguous term and what may negatively stress one person or animal may not have the same effect on another.

    I think it's one of those things where there's too many variables for them to say what causes the blood spots other than the obvious - that blood leaked through the blood vessel wall, or the blood vessel actually ruptured or was ripped apart. It's the *what caused the blood vessel to leak blood or to be ruptured or torn" question that doesn't have just one answer. Everything I've read on the subject identified *stress* as the most common problem that they have noted when searching for clues to the cause of blood vessel leakage/rupture. Of course the term *stress* is never clearly identified. Probably because there is not one term to identify negative vs positive stress across all chickens.

    I'm with you - it happens, and they really don't have an absolute, across the board answer as to what makes it happen for every chicken in every situation. Just gotta look at your flock and see if it happens in birds that are related, thinking that it may be an anatomical abnormality that keeps getting passed on, or if it is some other reason that you may or may not be able to ID and/or fix.
     
  5. Amina

    Amina Chillin' With My Peeps

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  6. Beekissed

    Beekissed True BYC Addict

    That's an interesting article, thanks for posting it! I'm thinking that the backyard breeder is already~by default~breeding against blood spots as we candle the eggs before incubating them. If one hen has consistent blood spot production, it would stand to reason her offspring are never going to be hatched. I expect that also goes for those that incubate commercially, as they undoubtedly have more sophisticated means than we to candle and eliminate these defects. I'm wondering, on that premise, how one would breed for or against something that one is not going to place in the incubator at all. At that point the blood spot carrying hens would never get to procreate at all and that trait would soon just die out, wouldn't it? [​IMG]
     
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  7. bnjrob

    bnjrob Overrun With Chickens

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    Some of those dark colored eggs are hard to candle. Even some of our lighter colored eggs have very thick shells and membranes that can make it hard to see sometimes. Then you would also have to assume that everyone that hatches also candles. I know non-serious breeding folks that don't bother to candle. Heck, I don't always bother to candle. And then there would be situations where folks don't know which hen it is. Those could account for passing it on genetically.

    We have a couple of hens we bought as chicks, and they have blood spots. The blood spots happened more often when they were young and living with a bunch of overly aggressive cockerels. Once those cockerels were dispatched and the pen calmed down, the amount of blood spots decreased, but did not completely go away. So we knew that the stress of the pen was involved in the problem, but that it was also likely an anatomic abnormality that was genetic. We still see a periodic spot from these hens, but not like it used to be. We have kept them from being breeders to prevent the genetic component to be passed on. But that's how we do things - not everybody has the same criteria for breeder birds that we do.
     
  8. Beekissed

    Beekissed True BYC Addict

    I was told that blood spots decrease hatchability. Wouldn't that also work to eliminate birds that carry a gene for that trait? If that reduces the likelihood that a chick will make it to hatch, it would seem likely that a trait like that wouldn't last very long, would it?
     
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  9. bmvf

    bmvf Chillin' With My Peeps

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    The eggs are collected daily. We had below freezing temps since new years day up until this week so we've had frozen yokes from time to time.

    I'm thinking I'd like to trap nest and get some data including bloody eggs.

    Like I said, I need to come up with a system to grow out these males. It's not hard separating the sexes, but it doesn't get done if I need to rig up a pen for them at the time I need to separate them.
     
  10. bnjrob

    bnjrob Overrun With Chickens

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    LOL - well, I've read that about the hatchability too. So you would think that if it was mostly or entirely genetic, then theoretically we should see it VERY infrequently, since the few birds should not be surviving to pass it on.

    This says to me that it is still the same as what I've read - there is more to it than absolute genetics or abnormal anatomical structure location and while they can pinpoint various commonalities between birds that have it, there is no one exact answer. Pretty much like everything else in poultry - too many variables.
     

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