BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Beekissed]

At what age did you separate them? With these Rocks it's an iffy thing what sex is which until around 3-4 mo. By that time they are just about grown.

 

[bnjrob]

I will weigh in here, on a couple of subjects

It's common practice for the game fowl breeders of old to separate the stags from the pullets at a very young age. They would send stags to a whole separate yard away from the pullets. Out of sight (and hearing) out of mind. This way the stags would free range longer and could be allowed to run together up to 12 months of age give or take instead of the typical 4-6 months of age before they turned fight crazy. Then the separate penning was a necessity

But the end result was same sized fowl. Genetics determine the size. Longer free ranging gave the fowl longer leaner muscle mass. Hence a much better condition with little to no body fat because of constant exercise.
Caponing will SEEM to create a larger eating birds. Just like steering a bull, or castrating a boar hog. Any time you castrate any male the end result is a larger being BUT it's not TRULY larger. It's actually just a different build from a muscle tissue standpoint. Removing the testosterone source causes softer muscle tissue. Causes all growth to go towards the actual frame and meat. So it SEEMS to cause a larger being. Whereas in reality it's all the same just the growth energy is directed in different areas. If allowed to grow to full maturity the animal that is still intact will be just as large and many times much heavier because of pure muscle mass. But when it comes to animal husbandry based on consumption, it's all about time. Time and feed consumption ratio means money. So the young castrated beings are quicker to market size and weight.
Plus taking the main motivating force in life from a male, I.e. Testosterone, will cause a whole nother outlook on life. Nothing else truly matters but eating and sleeping. Which in itself causes quicker growth. These reasons are why steered cattle, barrow pigs, and capon are more desireable and sell for a higher price than even their female counterparts

After about a year and a half old, we aren't doing all the exams and weights of everyone unless we see something really different, so it is possible that our original birds that were not kept separated could have eventually caught up with their offspring in size at a later date. Frequently with our birds, they still do some growing and changing up until they are two years old - which is a pain sometimes. Perhaps the size difference we have seen by separating the sexes is because the separated birds reached a larger size earlier than their parents, which was why we noticed it because we were comparing size at the same age of approx. 12-18 months old. And with continued selection for the larger birds, the size continues to increase, although a little more slowly. The largest jump in size occurred with the first group that we separated, but the subsequent groups have all been more equal in size. Which still is better, since reaching a larger size sooner is better for production purposes.

 

[bnjrob]

Maria's Giants are from the original Golda Miller line. If I wanted blues or blacks I had planned on going with hers, but she's$$, and her website is WHOOA, don't want to say 'nuts', we can do say sell whatever in our great country, some giant breeders don't like the fact she is selling for a premium, I say more power to her if they're buying! . IMHO worth it, why buy substandard? But I decided I wanted whites, Maria didn't go with the whites. SandHill got Golda Millers whites, but they don't breed for SOP (I don't care, I just want size!) They breed for 'genetic diversity', BUT they say their line is a closed flock since they acquired them.... HUH? And "many won't meet APA standards, but are hardy and productive...." They're little now, can't wait to see what I end up with....

OK, so they are breeding for *genetic diversity* but they have a closed flock - meaning they aren't bringing in any other strains of the birds to mix blood with. To me, that sounds like they are not just breeding from a trio, they are trying to keep a larger number of cocks and hens to breed from, to get more genes in the mix. That's fine, you can do that but it doesn't preclude breeding to any kind of a standard either.
We keep multiple cocks to breed with - from each strain (bloodline) we have, so we don't narrow down the number of genes in the mix too much and wind up with too many deformities from too-close inbreeding. But we still breed to the SOP. It makes for slow going sometimes with fixing flaws in the birds, but it is doable. Sounds almost like SandHill is trying to throw some good mumbo jumbo out there to cover for the fact that they do just like all the other hatcheries do - they breed for volume and not best SOP quality.

 

[bnjrob]

At what age did you separate them? With these Rocks it's an iffy thing what sex is which until around 3-4 mo. By that time they are just about grown.

I try to separate them by two months old - well before they start the hormones flowing. Sometimes we stretch it out to 3 or 4 months, depending on space available and how *amorous* the little boys are getting. But we can tell boys from girls most of the time by a month old, sometimes two months. Twice we've had a late blooming cockerel that got kept in the pullet pen for another month before he showed his true gender, but most of the time we don't have trouble distinguishing genders.

 

[gjensen]

I will say it once more, though this topic has been covered over and again throughout this thread.

Changing your feed, or management style absolutely will not alter the genetic potential of your birds. There are no magic short cuts. It will require selection, and time. A lot of both.

If we change feed, separate the sexes etc., and it increases final adult size . . . . .the prior generations were neglected and their growth was stunted. Positive changes in the style of management only allowed them to reach their potential.

I trialed these kinds of things over and again twenty years ago. Less examples of neglect, genetics determines adult size. The difference is that the point in time they reach that size can be different.

I do separate my sexes, and experience better growth rates. I do not see better size as adults. The #1 reason that there are better growth rates is that less energy is devoted to chasing the pullets, and competing with other cockerels. This concept has been understood for over a hundred years. Battery raised birds where the sexes are separated, do grow faster. They grow faster than birds that are not separated or are free ranged. They will not average larger as adults. The reason is that more energy was devoted to growth. Energy is required for growing. Again, unless one batch has been neglected and their growth is stunted. I am always assuming that all of the birds were managed well.

Some do not separate their sexes. Unless there is not enough space and feeders, they will not grow out as efficiently, but still reach their potential.

Our goal is always that they are managed well, and that their potential is realized. This includes the rate and consistency of their growth. We want to avoid checks in their growth, and we want good solid growth rates. We do want solid birds, and there is nothing positive going to come from attempting to push them too far.

It is the same with feed. If all else is equal, two males will reach the same size though one was fed 20% and another 24%. They will not grow at the same rate early on, but eventually the bird on lower protein feed will catch up to the bird on higher protein feed. The feed will not dictate final size, providing neither are neglected.

We are only feeding to see them reach their genetic potential, and we are always managing them to realize their genetic potential. If they are not reaching their genetic potential, then we are neglecting the birds. It requires extremes of some sort for them not to reach an appropriate adult size.
That is easier done than often is realized. All it takes is not enough feeders and/or space. That is common with a batch of growing birds. I have seen it over and again.

 

[DesertChic]

I will say it once more, though this topic has been covered over and again throughout this thread.

Changing your feed, or management style absolutely will not alter the genetic potential of your birds. There are no magic short cuts. It will require selection, and time. A lot of both.

If we change feed, separate the sexes etc., and it increases final adult size . . . . .the prior generations were neglected and their growth was stunted. Positive changes in the style of management only allowed them to reach their potential.

I trialed these kinds of things over and again twenty years ago. Less examples of neglect, genetics determines adult size. The difference is that the point in time they reach that size can be different.

I do separate my sexes, and experience better growth rates. I do not see better size as adults. The #1 reason that there are better growth rates is that less energy is devoted to chasing the pullets, and competing with other cockerels. This concept has been understood for over a hundred years. Battery raised birds where the sexes are separated, do grow faster. They grow faster than birds that are not separated or are free ranged. They will not average larger as adults. The reason is that more energy was devoted to growth. Energy is required for growing. Again, unless one batch has been neglected and their growth is stunted. I am always assuming that all of the birds were managed well.

Some do not separate their sexes. Unless there is not enough space and feeders, they will not grow out as efficiently, but still reach their potential.

Our goal is always that they are managed well, and that their potential is realized. This includes the rate and consistency of their growth. We want to avoid checks in their growth, and we want good solid growth rates. We do want solid birds, and there is nothing positive going to come from attempting to push them too far.

It is the same with feed. If all else is equal, two males will reach the same size though one was fed 20% and another 24%. They will not grow at the same rate early on, but eventually the bird on lower protein feed will catch up to the bird on higher protein feed. The feed will not dictate final size, providing neither are neglected.

We are only feeding to see them reach their genetic potential, and we are always managing them to realize their genetic potential. If they are not reaching their genetic potential, then we are neglecting the birds. It requires extremes of some sort for them not to reach an appropriate adult size.
That is easier done than often is realized. All it takes is not enough feeders and/or space. That is common with a batch of growing birds. I have seen it over and again.

Outstanding summary of an outstanding discussion. After reading through the dialog over these last few pages I've decided to make some changes in the way I'm keeping my birds. I already track and chart growth rates, but now I'm really looking forward to comparing parent to offspring as well as any differences that may reveal themselves within each breed from now separating males and females. For some of you this may be a tedious discussion as you've had it over and over again, but for someone like myself, someone quite new to poultry husbandry, this is very exciting indeed. Thanks for all the great information!

 

[bnjrob]

Outstanding summary of an outstanding discussion. After reading through the dialog over these last few pages I've decided to make some changes in the way I'm keeping my birds. I already track and chart growth rates, but now I'm really looking forward to comparing parent to offspring as well as any differences that may reveal themselves within each breed from now separating males and females. For some of you this may be a tedious discussion as you've had it over and over again, but for someone like myself, someone quite new to poultry husbandry, this is very exciting indeed. Thanks for all the great information!

Talking about stuff isn't so tedious as catching chickens to measure and weigh them. I think my husband cringes when I tell him we're spending the day examining chickens.

 

[gjensen]

Outstanding summary of an outstanding discussion. After reading through the dialog over these last few pages I've decided to make some changes in the way I'm keeping my birds. I already track and chart growth rates, but now I'm really looking forward to comparing parent to offspring as well as any differences that may reveal themselves within each breed from now separating males and females. For some of you this may be a tedious discussion as you've had it over and over again, but for someone like myself, someone quite new to poultry husbandry, this is very exciting indeed. Thanks for all the great information!

The problem with comparing the offspring to the parents is that they are genetically different animals.

The best comparisons are made within a batch, hatched on the same date, and raised identically. If you did track them, from generation to generation, you could identify trends. The problem comes in that from year to year, the conditions are not identical. The feed ingredients, and quality, will vary from season to season, the weather is never the same from year to year, etc. etc. Something as simple as a bad cocci year that you did not identify because the birds did not fail, could make a large difference initially and finally. Our birds tolerate burdens that we do not see, and one year is different than the next.

So, track them. You will learn things if you stick it out. Be careful about drawing radical and definite conclusions based on a single season though. There are too many variables, seen and unseen, to draw hasty conclusions and perpetuate those conclusions as fact.

For people that truly study the Bible, it is important that they do not build doctrine on single and obscure passages. Instead we should make comparisons with similar passages, consider the context, view all that scripture says on the topic etc. Though our churches are full of it today, and Facebook is full of misunderstood verses that are out of context. Perpetuating a looseness with things that should matter. Not to all, of course. Not many, really.

Similarly, we should not draw definite from a single observation. Instead we make our management choices on a collection of observations. Much of what "we know" is a body of work passed down.

 

[JRNash]

I thought I had a plan,now it will take help in the rethink and approach. Utilizing 4 breeds. Kept seperate in order to control cross's. How many generations should you pursue certain attributes in a strain, before abandoning that cross. Would a graph with the characteristics be the way to go? Spiral clan system? Ive learned just enough to realize I DON'T know anything. Lol

 

[bnjrob]

I thought I had a plan,now it will take help in the rethink and approach. Utilizing 4 breeds. Kept seperate in order to control cross's. How many generations should you pursue certain attributes in a strain, before abandoning that cross. Would a graph with the characteristics be the way to go? Spiral clan system? Ive learned just enough to realize I DON'T know anything. Lol

As far as how many generations to go - that all depends on what your looking for and how the DNA mixes, and how important to you a particular trait is. You'd be looking at how many offspring are showing a particular trait and how often is that trait showing up? And do you know if it is coming from the cock or the hens? And do you know which cock and which hens a trait is coming from? And then there is the traits that none of the breeders exhibit, yet it shows up in their offspring. There are just so many variables that it's hard to answer that question.

I have to laugh because I totally understand where you're coming from. It really does seem like the more you learn, the more you still need to learn. And you don't know what questions to even ask sometimes. There are just so many variables that play a part of your outcomes.

Honestly if I were you, I'd pare down to no more than two breeds, preferably one. It's just too much work to try to do anything serious with so many breeds. We have one breed in multiple colors and multiple old bloodlines, and it is a TON of work. I can't imagine trying to learn all the ins and outs of another completely different breed and still hope to have some sort of measurable success with them. Then there is the need keep more birds than most folks, because you need to have backup breeders in case of unexpected losses. A loss of a chosen breeder can set you way back in your progress if you don't have a backup of similar quality. It's slow going to breed to any kind of standard that you set for your birds and trying to do that with so many breeds is going to be even more difficult unless you have absolutely nothing else to do except eat, sleep, and breath chickens, and you have a whole lot of room.