BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[ConPollos]

That's why it takes an artisan Each breed should develop at a different weight. Emily has guidelines for her light sussex and culls any that are under X weight in X amount of weeks. It takes some experimenting.  If you you are breeding for production you want larger weights sooner. So in a way it's not secret but there is no set standard (IMO for a good reason). As a breeder you have to choose a weight you think would be good and at what time you think it should be there. Keep track of what birds are the fastest growers pick any exceptionally good ones out to start using and improving on your baseline.


But there are no production standards - Sure sites say the should lay XXX amount of eggs per  year. But breeding for production is way harder than breeding for phenotype. You can easily judge a bird based on it's phenotype. But there it takes a good set of hands to judge for production traits. And you can have great production from pure bred stock if bred correctly. The physicality of the bird in terms of feathers has little to do with production - So I guess what I don't get is why do we judge birds on it. It makes no sense. Chickens are livestock - not dogs or cats. 

There was a comparison done with dog breeds from 100 years ago and dog breeds today side by side the difference was shocking, and really makes you stop and think.... I wish I could find it now but I can't 

Amen! The mid-century GSD was a magnificent, athletic, courageous protector, like Rin Tin Tin. Now, thanks to dog fanciers who breed mainly for looks in the show ring, modern GSDs look like roach-backed frogs and won't protect anything. Consequently, even the US law enforcement agencies have to import their working lines of GSDs from Austria, they won't use USA bred dogs.

I'm worried about the same thing happening to my beloved Catahoula Cur breed now that fanciers are breeding for fancy colors and multicolored eyes.

So, since I wanted egg production I got all my birds from Cackle via my farm supply.

I'm excited that Mr. Lay has bred the Buckeye chickens to be more productive, and I'm hoping the Icelandic Viking chicken breeders will do the same.

I will follow this thread with interest.

 

[JRNash]

@bnjrob You summed it up nicely. I do have the room for it. And since I don't have any other hobbies to speak of...

 

[collie1470]

This thread is so ridiculously informative. I just sit here and read it, and adjust my plans as I read more haha.

 

[ConPollos]

There's an Oklahoma breeder of French Black Copper Marans and Wheaten Marans, and he breeds mainly for the darkest egg color. Now his Wheatens are laying even darker eggs than his FBCMs. I like what he's doing.

Under ideal conditions his Wheatens will lay every 1-1/2 days, which is great condidering those dark eggs have to spend a longer time passing through the hen in order to get that dark.

His farm is Fitz Farm, and in the fall I hope to get some of his Wheaten pullets to add pizzaz to my egg basket.

He's got a shortage right now because of the demand for his Wheatens. For many people, myself included, it's all about the eggs.

 

[ronott1]

There's an Oklahoma breeder of French Black Copper Marans and Wheaten Marans, and he breeds mainly for the darkest egg color. Now his Wheatens are laying even darker eggs than his FBCMs. I like what he's doing.

Under ideal conditions his Wheatens will lay every 1-1/2 days, which is great condidering those dark eggs have to spend a longer time passing through the hen in order to get that dark.

His farm is Fitz Farm, and in the fall I hope to get some of his Wheaten pullets to add pizzaz to my egg basket.

He's got a shortage right now because of the demand for his Wheatens. For many people, myself included, it's all about the eggs.

I have read before that the longer time causes the egg to be darker.

I do not know of any studies that show this though. I am sure you can get dark eggs with a much better lay rate.

Of course I call that breed Penedesencas....

 

[ConPollos]

I have read before that the longer time causes the egg to be darker.

I do not know of any studies that show this though. I am sure you can get dark eggs with a much better lay rate.

Of course I call that breed Penedesencas....

What size eggs do Penedesencas lay, and how many per week on average under ideal conditions?

 

[Ifish]

Getting caught up on the reading here. Very informative, and now has me wondering where I can put a third pen here around the house for the cockerels.

I can put them on the east side of the house in hoop style coop I guess. Wife doesn't want a bunch of chicken houses all over the yard though.

I am building the breeding pens behind the barn next to the current main coop. Would be a great spot for a bachelor pad, then I could build hoops for the breeders, since I would only use them in the spring, and can store them in the barn.

So much to think about, and time isn't getting any slower.

 

[ronott1]

What size eggs do Penedesencas lay, and how many per week on average under ideal conditions?

Hendersons chicken chart has a comparison--The Penedesencas get 4 eggs and the Marans get 3.

The Penedesenca eggs are just as dark as Marans--sometimes darker.

 

[gjensen]

I thought I had a plan,now it will take help in the rethink and approach. Utilizing 4 breeds. Kept seperate in order to control cross's. How many generations should you pursue certain attributes in a strain, before abandoning that cross. Would a graph with the characteristics be the way to go? Spiral clan system? Ive learned just enough to realize I DON'T know anything. Lol

Rarely does anyone do anything special with multiple breeds and multiple varieties. It is not the 1920s where we could make a living breeding a breed, and they still tended to specialize.

One breed, and one variety. If you master that one, and want to add another, add another.

Learn one breed, and one variety. It is a lot to learn with a single color and breed. Much that we do learn is transferable, so mastering one is a good start on another.

Not to mention facilities. It requires a lot to do well by one breed and variety when we are hatching enough, and are maintaining a flock that is deep enough. One breed and one variety that is kept in enough numbers, the flock is deep enough and stable, eats a lot of feed. If we add anything, one takes away from the other, and vice versa.

White and Black are the simplest colors to learn.

Learning to breed is learning the breed.

 

[gevshiba]

I will weigh in here, on a couple of subjects

It's common practice for the game fowl breeders of old to separate the stags from the pullets at a very young age. They would send stags to a whole separate yard away from the pullets. Out of sight (and hearing) out of mind. This way the stags would free range longer and could be allowed to run together up to 12 months of age give or take instead of the typical 4-6 months of age before they turned fight crazy. Then the separate penning was a necessity

But the end result was same sized fowl. Genetics determine the size. Longer free ranging gave the fowl longer leaner muscle mass. Hence a much better condition with little to no body fat because of constant exercise.
Caponing will SEEM to create a larger eating birds. Just like steering a bull, or castrating a boar hog. Any time you castrate any male the end result is a larger being BUT it's not TRULY larger. It's actually just a different build from a muscle tissue standpoint. Removing the testosterone source causes softer muscle tissue. Causes all growth to go towards the actual frame and meat. So it SEEMS to cause a larger being. Whereas in reality it's all the same just the growth energy is directed in different areas. If allowed to grow to full maturity the animal that is still intact will be just as large and many times much heavier because of pure muscle mass. But when it comes to animal husbandry based on consumption, it's all about time. Time and feed consumption ratio means money. So the young castrated beings are quicker to market size and weight.
Plus taking the main motivating force in life from a male, I.e. Testosterone, will cause a whole nother outlook on life. Nothing else truly matters but eating and sleeping. Which in itself causes quicker growth. These reasons are why steered cattle, barrow pigs, and capon are more desireable and sell for a higher price than even their female counterparts

This may be of no interest to anyone and it's not about chickens, but maybe something can be gleaned from it. I worked on a horse farm that decided to do a test. They gelded a 30 day old colt. He grew huge. He was very tall with long muscling. He never developed the heavy muscle that is so desirable in halter QH's. Both parents were heavy muscled and large, but he outgrew both in height. Fast forward and change species. Rescues start doing pediatric spay/neuters in puppies on a regular basis. Now we see a relation to early s/n and tall, narrow dogs with long muscling. I groom an Aussie who was spayed at 4 months. I know her parents and a sibling who was kept intact. She's taller than all of them. She weighs nothing because she is so narrow, even in her head. She feels like she has no muscle, but she is extremely active, running and herding. We know now that early s/n is also a factor in increased ligament injuries and tears as well as incontinence problems (I have a rescue, spayed at 10 weeks with incontinence problems and she is also a tall, narrow dog). Hormones, or lack of, can change so much.

Amen! The mid-century GSD was a magnificent, athletic, courageous protector, like Rin Tin Tin. Now, thanks to dog fanciers who breed mainly for looks in the show ring, modern GSDs look like roach-backed frogs and won't protect anything. Consequently, even the US law enforcement agencies have to import their working lines of GSDs from Austria, they won't use USA bred dogs.

I'm worried about the same thing happening to my beloved Catahoula Cur breed now that fanciers are breeding for fancy colors and multicolored eyes.

So, since I wanted egg production I got all my birds from Cackle via my farm supply.

I'm excited that Mr. Lay has bred the Buckeye chickens to be more productive, and I'm hoping the Icelandic Viking chicken breeders will do the same.

I will follow this thread with interest.

There's basically 2 types of GSD. German lines and American lines. So when you talk GSD, the American lines are what you're calling USA bred dogs. But we have plenty of great German lines in the USA, too. So please, don't lump them all together as "bad". Plus, there's some American lines that don't breed for excessive angulation. They'll never win in the breed ring (whatever!), but they are good working dogs. They don't have the intense working temperament that the German lines have, so aren't really a good choice for law enforcement work. But German lines don't always make for good pets, either, unless you are giving them a job.