BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Beekissed]

Bee, respectfully, you are trying to critique something for the sake of being critical. You have not offered a credible or constructive alternative. I have tried to explain to you the factors that come into play. There are many variables to consider when we consider these topics.

These are things that we have to sort out for ourselves along the way.

The proof in the pudding is in the eating. I suspect that you will have a more involved and evolved view in time, if you remain interested in what you have recently started. That is you will have a sense of what it will require with your own birds, with your goals, and in your time. Then you will be able to offer a perspective based on your experiences.

Actually, I'm not being critical at all...just trying to sort through all the big words and theories to get down to the meat of the topic. Everyone has great advice on how to get to a certain point, but the minute you ask if anyone has actually reached that point with those methods, someone gets defensive about the questions. I just want some honesty about the topic and less smoke and mirrors on it. I'm a simple person and understand things more if it's put in very basic terms...if you do this, this will happen. And I'm hearing those things but the minute I ask, "Okay...where is the finished product for that method?" I start to get the Texas two step on it.

Phrases like you'll understand it down the road or you'll have to sort it out for yourself along the way are something one would say to a child when they don't have a real answer to give.

Respectively, I don't expect I'll have a more involved or evolved view at all with time because I can't even get a simple answer from the beginning...it's kind of hard to evolve or get involved when there are so many words that don't have a practical meaning when you are standing out on the grass looking at an animal. It's like the Emperor's new clothes, "Only smart people can see them...if you can't see them, then you are just not smart enough."

Every time I ask penetrating questions I'm being told I'm being critical about something I don't know about....well, yeah. I'm trying to find out something I don't know about and questions are how one does that. I don't want chapter and verse on phenotype or other such things, just simple, practical answers to, if this works and everyone is supposed to be doing it, show me the results of it. I'm a visual learner, so pics are nice...progressive ones that show how one got from point A to point B. If I never get to see point B, then how does anyone know those methods work? I have a hard time just doing something for the sake of doing it simply because everyone says it will work "some day", but they never can give one an example of it ever really working.

For example, I have a rooster on my land that is out of a line that has been bred for nigh a hundred years by several different knowledgeable breeders who know all the ins and outs of breeding, the big words and all, and I think he's a beautiful animal....but he's just not quite the thing, for some reason. Still not right. All those guys, all those years, all that knowledge but some of those guys are still looking for that perfect animal, still trying to make improvements and doing it exactly the same way as the guys before them because they were told that this is the way to do it. They never really reach the goal, it seems.

My mama always told me, if you do what you've always done, you'll always have what you always had. Another smart person said the definition of insanity is doing something the same way over and over, but expecting different results.

I'm curious about it all and I can't help myself every once in awhile to ask the obvious questions that many want to ask but get shut down on each time they ask. Why do it that way if it never really and truly ever works? If you never get a finished product from it, might it be wise to try a different way to see if more progress could be made towards that finished product? Have all different avenues been tried besides that one and all have proven to fail, more so than these one or two methods of breeding chickens?

I think it's only natural, when one is starting out on an adventure, to explore how many roads one can take to get to a destination so they can make a more informed choice. It would be doubly helpful if one could ask if anyone has ever really reached the destination without someone getting defensive about it. If I don't know the answer to something, I don't find it a bit shameful to say, "I just don't know". Seems like every time I ask certain questions about breeding on BYC, I get one of two responses from all the big boys: 1) You are being critical. Don't ask tough questions about something you know nothing about. or 2) Don't worry your little ol' head about it, little lady, you'll find out about it the further you get along the way...just do what we do and you'll be just fine."

I'd just like to get a simple answer that actually answers the question. If there is no answer, then I'd like to know that too. But I'd love it if someone would just be honest enough to admit that and say, "Well, according the science of genetics, these methods should work, but no one really knows for sure because we never can produce a finished product with these methods."

 

[dfr1973]

I have read that silkies make good broodies, and they are fairly easy to come by. If I ever run short on broodies I may try some. How much are they able to teach the chicks the raise. I can't imagine that silkies are very good at free ranging. That is my only concern with the breed, and I may be wrong.

Ya know, I meant to reply to that earlier! Silkies' ability to see depends on how poofy their crest is, but some folks use games or bantam breeds with clear eyesight instead of Silkies. I may trim their crests, depending on how they molt out next time, and I am working out getting some Svart Hona (Swedish Blacks) to cross over the splash Silkies for larger birds that are still all Fm black next spring. I do have one bantam cross breed, I suspect she's Polish and Rosecomb mix, who hatched and raised the four test breeding chicks. I thought for sure she'd run their little legs off, instead they grew fast and strong.

 

[dfr1973]

For example, I have a rooster on my land that is out of a line that has been bred for nigh a hundred years by several different knowledgeable breeders who know all the ins and outs of breeding, the big words and all, and I think he's a beautiful animal....but he's just not quite the thing, for some reason. Still not right. All those guys, all those years, all that knowledge but some of those guys are still looking for that perfect animal, still trying to make improvements and doing it exactly the same way as the guys before them because they were told that this is the way to do it. They never really reach the goal, it seems.

Bee, the Standard of Perfection is supposed to be an unobtainable goal ... with the understanding that no chicken will ever be truly perfect. There will (and should) always be one more thing that could be improved. "All have fallen short," but we still make the effort anyway.

 

[Our Roost]

You are partially right but the turkey headed version came later. Do you have any idea how many birds have malines blood in them! They have been used to make many breeds.


This is a Belgian Malines rooster. A hen next to it and another rooster in the background.

 

[Our Roost]

Do you want an honest answer? There is no such thing as a perfect chicken! The best you can do is strive for the S.O.P. within the breed itself unless you are a utility breeder working on a self constructed project. Some methods of getting to that point that you yourself are satisfied work more effectively than others. This is the whole point of the conversation. Every ones scenario or set up is not constant with what the mentors are suggesting to follow for best results. Cant and wont be done by most of us. So what's the alternative you ask! Have you learned the Texas 2 step yet?

 

[Beer can]

@Mini Meat The silkies I got from TSC, they sell them in mixed bantams I just picked out the ones with five toes, have barely any crest and free range fine. They lay great and are big for silkies. My cockerel is over six pounds, pullets I never weighed but have to be at least half that. Pullet in front cock behind her

 

[dfr1973]

@Mini Meat The silkies I got from TSC, they sell them in mixed bantams I just picked out the ones with five toes, have barely any crest and free range fine. They lay great and are big for silkies. My cockerel is over six pounds, pullets I never weighed but have to be at least half that. Pullet in front cock behind her

Those look like cross breds ... but they also look nice and big. Should be interesting to see how many eggs the pullet(s) can get underneath her (their) fluffy bottom(s).

 

[AnthNDacula]

I've got a question on a different topic. A lot of people in the on-line SOP world talk about "pair breeding". I've never kept just one cock with one hen but have always found that more cocks and fewer hens meant worn out hens... worn out meaning they have lots of feathers torn out of their backs. Does that not happen in a pen with just one cock and one hen?

 

[hellbender]

You are partially right but the turkey headed version came later. Do you have any idea how many birds have malines blood in them! They have been used to make many breeds.


This is a Belgian Malines rooster. A hen next to it and another rooster in the background.

Very fine looking bird indeed!!! The only things I would change about him is his comb and wattles.

 

[gjensen]

Actually, I'm not being critical at all...just trying to sort through all the big words and theories to get down to the meat of the topic. Everyone has great advice on how to get to a certain point, but the minute you ask if anyone has actually reached that point with those methods, someone gets defensive about the questions. I just want some honesty about the topic and less smoke and mirrors on it. I'm a simple person and understand things more if it's put in very basic terms...if you do this, this will happen. And I'm hearing those things but the minute I ask, "Okay...where is the finished product for that method?" I start to get the Texas two step on it.

Phrases like you'll understand it down the road or you'll have to sort it out for yourself along the way are something one would say to a child when they don't have a real answer to give.

Respectively, I don't expect I'll have a more involved or evolved view at all with time because I can't even get a simple answer from the beginning...it's kind of hard to evolve or get involved when there are so many words that don't have a practical meaning when you are standing out on the grass looking at an animal. It's like the Emperor's new clothes, "Only smart people can see them...if you can't see them, then you are just not smart enough."

Every time I ask penetrating questions I'm being told I'm being critical about something I don't know about....well, yeah. I'm trying to find out something I don't know about and questions are how one does that. I don't want chapter and verse on phenotype or other such things, just simple, practical answers to, if this works and everyone is supposed to be doing it, show me the results of it. I'm a visual learner, so pics are nice...progressive ones that show how one got from point A to point B. If I never get to see point B, then how does anyone know those methods work? I have a hard time just doing something for the sake of doing it simply because everyone says it will work "some day", but they never can give one an example of it ever really working.

For example, I have a rooster on my land that is out of a line that has been bred for nigh a hundred years by several different knowledgeable breeders who know all the ins and outs of breeding, the big words and all, and I think he's a beautiful animal....but he's just not quite the thing, for some reason. Still not right. All those guys, all those years, all that knowledge but some of those guys are still looking for that perfect animal, still trying to make improvements and doing it exactly the same way as the guys before them because they were told that this is the way to do it. They never really reach the goal, it seems.

My mama always told me, if you do what you've always done, you'll always have what you always had. Another smart person said the definition of insanity is doing something the same way over and over, but expecting different results.

I'm curious about it all and I can't help myself every once in awhile to ask the obvious questions that many want to ask but get shut down on each time they ask. Why do it that way if it never really and truly ever works? If you never get a finished product from it, might it be wise to try a different way to see if more progress could be made towards that finished product? Have all different avenues been tried besides that one and all have proven to fail, more so than these one or two methods of breeding chickens?

I think it's only natural, when one is starting out on an adventure, to explore how many roads one can take to get to a destination so they can make a more informed choice. It would be doubly helpful if one could ask if anyone has ever really reached the destination without someone getting defensive about it. If I don't know the answer to something, I don't find it a bit shameful to say, "I just don't know". Seems like every time I ask certain questions about breeding on BYC, I get one of two responses from all the big boys: 1) You are being critical. Don't ask tough questions about something you know nothing about. or 2) Don't worry your little ol' head about it, little lady, you'll find out about it the further you get along the way...just do what we do and you'll be just fine."

I'd just like to get a simple answer that actually answers the question. If there is no answer, then I'd like to know that too. But I'd love it if someone would just be honest enough to admit that and say, "Well, according the science of genetics, these methods should work, but no one really knows for sure because we never can produce a finished product with these methods."

This response and other responses that I made related to this was along a line of particular questions. Those related to the quantities hatched. Why some did this or that.

Phrases like you mentioned is the correct thing to say when you will figure it out down the line. That is the truth. That is not being demeaning. That is being honest. No one can sort that out for you, but you. I tried being helpful. I took the time to type what I did for reasons other than for myself. I did not have to type anything. I gained nothing for the typing. I did what I could to explain the misc. variables that could affect how many you might hatch etc. (and why)

You will figure how many you need to when you figure out what your goals are compared to how your start is progressing. As I mentioned already, the birds dictate much of this.

You will get a more involved/evolved view in time because your experiences will help shape that view. Where we start and end is too different things. Kind of like the teenager that already knows until he or she really does know. Which is never, because there is no conclusion to the knowing.

I have said all that I could without writing a paper on how the different variables affect how many we might hatch etc. I will not go back down that road again. I should have learned my lesson the last two times.

Concerning why your cock bird is not particular good, I do not know. There is good breeding and bad breeding. Then there is that, that falls in between. Many just perpetuate what they have, and some actively breed for improvement. I do not know where the 100 year remark comes from, but no one has bred a strain for a 100 years. There is no continual line to trace. Then there is always variability. No one is cloning them. In a given hatch there is good, bad, and in between. But I am not going there again, LOL.

Some breeds have been brought to a rather high degree of quality concerning standard features. Reds is one. 100 years ago, Reds looked like New Hampshires today. They have come along ways. The work I admire the most is that of the Leghorn breeders. The color and type on Light Browns and Whites is especially sharp. There is a line of buff that I admire. Most large fowl have done well to survive though. Most of the recent show breeding has been done with bantams. Large Fowl across the board have been neglected, and have fallen from grace. Many are not as they were.

So much progress has been done with some. These are represented by a line of dedicated fanciers. Some have remained stagnant, and some have lost ground.

Perfect is not possible, though some (especially with bantams) are close. Then what perfect is can evolve in some, unfortunately.

Every now and then, in a good strain, you will get that one that makes your eyes twinkle. Then the object is to make more of them, which is the work of a breeder.

ETA: And Bee, part of the comments about the evolution of views has my own evolution in mind. The one where I am still evolving. LOL.