BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[LeslieDJoyce]

I suspect that eventually I may go the route of custom feed, either purchased (if I can find it at low volumes) or put together myself. But daytime job is pretty crazy, so I can't add that level of complexity - yet. But I will indeed be reading and learning. Thanks!!!!

- Ant Farm

There is a feed mill in Texas that some people say is the best poultry feed available, and is reported to be "cost effective" as it is so much more nutritious for the birds. I have not ever purchased it, so I am only reporting what other people tell me. It's too far from me for me to seriously consider it, but some people up near me (Pacific Northwest) are supposedly doing group buys. In this crazy world, it really isn't that much more expensive to ship a ton of feed as it is to mail a 50 lb bag of it.

Our custom feed comes in 1 ton units, and we store it in our house so it stays dry, fresh, and rodent free. It was a bit of a project to get the feed recipe set up, and I do review it once per year. That gives me like 11 months of completely worry-free poultry feeding.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

There is a feed mill in Texas that some people say is the best poultry feed available, and is reported to be "cost effective" as it is so much more nutritious for the birds. I have not ever purchased it, so I am only reporting what other people tell me. It's too far from me for me to seriously consider it, but some people up near me (Pacific Northwest) are supposedly doing group buys. In this crazy world, it really isn't that much more expensive to ship a ton of feed as it is to mail a 50 lb bag of it.

Our custom feed comes in 1 ton units, and we store it in our house so it stays dry, fresh, and rodent free. It was a bit of a project to get the feed recipe set up, and I do review it once per year. That gives me like 11 months of completely worry-free poultry feeding.

Do you mind saying which one? (Hugelland? HandH? Coyote Creek? Those are the ones I can think of right now...)

- Ant Farm

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Do you mind saying which one? (Hugelland? HandH? Coyote Creek? Those are the ones I can think of right now...)

- Ant Farm

Sure. H and H. One of the stridently picky poultry people I know says all other feed is total junk, including what I feed. BUT ... I'm not entirely sure she'd even TRIED H&H feed before she said that.

I can say H&H was one of the brands I considered when I was doing my initial research about where to buy feed as they actually TEST their ingredients before mixing. But "buying local" is one of my values, and I really like the people at our little local mill, and the feed is highly recommended by other local breeders and producers, so we went with the local guy. We can haul a ton home in a pickup, and it usually takes about a week for the mill to put together a fresh batch for us when we order.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Sure. H and H. One of the stridently picky poultry people I know says all other feed is total junk, including what I feed. BUT ... I'm not entirely sure she'd even TRIED H&H feed before she said that.

I can say H&H was one of the brands I considered when I was doing my initial research about where to buy feed as they actually TEST their ingredients before mixing. But "buying local" is one of my values, and I really like the people at our little local mill, and the feed is highly recommended by other local breeders and producers, so we went with the local guy.

Ah. H & H is one of the ones I tried that the CLs rejected. But it was old fashioned layer feed at that time, and they picked through it for the bits they liked and generally made a mess. I could try it again, I suppose - they do have a game bird feed. It is local, though a bit of a drive to get it.

- Ant Farm

 

[Our Roost]

Hmm, I add sunflower seeds and oats currently to my feed for all the birds. I have 2 coops with egg layers in one and prospective meat birds in the other. In retrospect, I have breeders in both coops even though they are dual purpose egg layers. I will definitely inquire about a breeder blend. Other than that, I pretty much follow everything you mentioned from chick to adult age. Thanks for thinking about me! I always enjoy your input.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Ah. H & H is one of the ones I tried that the CLs rejected. But it was old fashioned layer feed at that time, and they picked through it for the bits they liked and generally made a mess. I could try it again, I suppose - they do have a game bird feed. It is local, though a bit of a drive to get it.

- Ant Farm

This is why I like a fully pelleted feed.

And that was another factor in why I went with the local mill. They understand and advocate pelleting.

I gather there are a lot of poultry people in, like Australia, that refused to feed milled grains to their birds as they insist they spoil instantly. In Australia, for example, pelleted protein and supplements are sold separately with the notion that the poultry keeper will mix them with whole loose grain & seed feed. My mill is offering a mix like this, nutrient pellets and a fancy mixture of whole grains and seeds, but it is very expensive and not as local, and the birds do still tend to pick through it, which I don't want my breeders doing.

 

[gjensen]

For the casual observer, we have a few different conversations going at the same time.

Managing layers is just management. The goal and the end result is different. If we are convinced of a method that is getting results, then good. If our "customers" require a particular feed, then so be it. However, breeding birds are producing hatching eggs for our incubator. They are two different products for two different consumers. They are not the same topic. The goals are radically different.

Ideally, we are not breeding pullets. We are breeding hens that have proved themselves already. When they are set aside to be used as breeders, they should be managed differently. Managing one is not the same as managing the other. Regardless of what we decide to do, e should understand the differences.

Even before commercial rations, breeders were good feeders. They learned by experience, based on what was available to them, what worked and when. The larger breeders at the turn of the century often employed feeders. With gamecocks, some strains were named after their feeder. The feeders had an eye for the birds and the bird's condition. They were very important contributors.
One thing that feeders did well was feed for purpose. They understood when the birds were being kept in periods of maintenance, and fed accordingly. They knew when and how to feed for performance, and they fed differently still for bird destined for the brood pens.
We see this today at the feed store. We see chick starter, layer, finisher, etc. It has long been understood that the dietary needs of the birds changed with the birds, and the bird's purpose.

If we are not going to use commercial rations, we should aim to be like the top feeders before commercial rations were. They were no slouches. They had rather scientific methods. They classified just sprouted grains as grain, and then after a few days, greens. They realized that there was a change. They knew to feed a certain percentage of concentrated dry feed in grains. Then a percentage "wet" feed in greens etc. They understood a little more animal protein during the breeding season. They knew that too much fiber was a problem, so they limited high fiber foods, or prepared it. Oats is high fiber, so they soaked the oats. They even fed probiotics in the form of horse manure. They would give them some to scratch through if they were confined. Ash for minerals etc. Of course their was people that would throw the birds some corn and forget about them. These were not the breeders though. They were simply mom and pops managing a layer flock, looking to get a few eggs. That is a much different enterprise.

 

[Kusanar]

*Snip*

Flockraiser is a good feed. Dumor Chick Starter is as good and costs less. The two are compatible. You would spend less mixing chick starter and layer, or just chick starter alone. But. . . if you like Flockraiser, it is fine. Feed them that alone. Just add some calf manna and sunflower seeds during the breeding season. Breeders require a higher % of fat than producing birds. The feed is already short on fat. Fats (oils) go bad very fast. So supplementation during breeding season is helpful. Hulled sunflower seeds is good for adding some fat.

*Snip*

I have seen you suggest feeding hulled sunflower seeds a few times, while I understand why to feed sunflower seeds, why specifically the hulled ones? Am I missing something? Is it just that if you remove the hull the fat percentage goes up because there is less fiber?

 

[ChickenCanoe]

The protein % is double in hulled vs. seeds with hull intact.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I think the notion of specific rations for specific ages & types of birds comes from valuing economics more than nutrition.

Poultry Science has traditionally been more about economics ... how to produce poultry products as cheaply as possible ... so often was about finding the specific balance of nutrients the birds need in order to perform, and including just those nutrients in that balance and nothing more. You can get away with the slim margins on the balance of nutrients when the birds are going to die soon anyway.

But, as @gjensen noted, breeders are different. Breeders need to be fed well enough to be in great condition well before breeding season in order to to produce super nutrient-dense fertile eggs so the chicks that grow inside them will be healthy. Breeders are expected to live longer than meat birds or layers. By a lot. And so on.

We've always known that birds do better (health and performance) on extra nutrition (this is true for both broilers and layers), and we're starting to understand how the extra nutrition will produce more nutritious poultry products.

So, I thought I'd throw out there the notion that hobby farm breeders it MAY make sense ... financial sense, nutritional sense, common sense ... to use a breeder ration as a base feed for all the birds. I decided to consult a feed nutritionist/mixer/custom mill to see if that was possible, it was, we switched to that system, I can tell my birds are healthier for it, and it's less stressy for us humans.

That said, I do reserve the right to continue tweaking my feed if I feel I can do better.

And yes, we could save a few pennies by feeding layer rations to the layers, and chick starter to the chicks, etc. Except my breeders are layers in the off season and are also broody hatching and raising my chicks, and the broodies and chick are mixed in with both the breeders and layers. So, all the birds would have to be very honest about following my instructions about what feed to eat to make that work ...

For what it's worth, when I was chasing the "feed economy" ideal and had several types of feed going at once, I could NOT get anyone else here to understand how to put the right feed into the right feeders. And we're a smart bunch. It was maddening. It's so much saner here using breeder rations as our base feed. The birds are sure doing better.