BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[AnthNDacula]

Sure. H and H. One of the stridently picky poultry people I know says all other feed is total junk, including what I feed. BUT ... I'm not entirely sure she'd even TRIED H&H feed before she said that.

I can say H&H was one of the brands I considered when I was doing my initial research about where to buy feed as they actually TEST their ingredients before mixing. But "buying local" is one of my values, and I really like the people at our little local mill, and the feed is highly recommended by other local breeders and producers, so we went with the local guy. We can haul a ton home in a pickup, and it usually takes about a week for the mill to put together a fresh batch for us when we order.

Hurray for "buying local". Leave it to an Oregonian to point that out. I actually use polystyrene egg cartons because the factory is about 5 minutes from my farm, and I want to keep my dollars local. Also they can be rinsed and reused dozens of times and finally recycled when they break down. I can't get that level of use out of with a paper carton shipped to me from the other side of the country. It's a one time use and then off to recycling or the landfill. Most of my customers bring them back over and over again. In the end I suspect my carbon footprint is much smaller using locally made polystyrene. In most cases I wouldn't suggest using poly, but I'm trying to live locally while considering the global picture.
Anthony

 

[Our Roost]

Well, we usually buy the black oiled sunflower seeds not only for our bird feeders but the chickens as well. Don't forget the pesky squirrels! Any who, I have yet to see husked seeds in the larger 40-50lb. bags. I also didn't realize that hulled had more protein. Thanks, I will do some exploring.

 

[mirandaleecon]

I've been lurking here a bit and wanted to ask, while you guys are on the subject of feed; Do any of you use fermented feed with your breeders? And/or do any of you try to produce your own chicken feed with gardens/mealworms/etc?

Where I'm at, nobody seems to care about anything organic or frufru, the types of feed are always changing at the feed stores, and a couple of the smaller ones have reduced what they have available to only a few options. I can't even get non-medicated chick starter anywhere so I have to go with game bird feed. I have to drive almost two hours just to get non-medicated goat feed. I just don't believe in medicating before there is anything wrong, so sue me...

I guess where I'm getting at, is I would rather not have to rely on the ever-changing feed stores and if I can produce my own feed, and breed chickens more suitable to free ranging, all the better. I just don't know enough to make sure they are getting all the nutrition they need...yet...

 

[gjensen]

I think the notion of specific rations for specific ages & types of birds comes from valuing economics more than nutrition.

Poultry Science has traditionally been more about economics ... how to produce poultry products as cheaply as possible ... so often was about finding the specific balance of nutrients the birds need in order to perform, and including just those nutrients in that balance and nothing more. You can get away with the slim margins on the balance of nutrients when the birds are going to die soon anyway.

But, as @gjensen noted, breeders are different. Breeders need to be fed well enough to be in great condition well before breeding season in order to to produce super nutrient-dense fertile eggs so the chicks that grow inside them will be healthy. Breeders are expected to live longer than meat birds or layers. By a lot. And so on.

We've always known that birds do better (health and performance) on extra nutrition (this is true for both broilers and layers), and we're starting to understand how the extra nutrition will produce more nutritious poultry products.

So, I thought I'd throw out there the notion that hobby farm breeders it MAY make sense ... financial sense, nutritional sense, common sense ... to use a breeder ration as a base feed for all the birds. I decided to consult a feed nutritionist/mixer/custom mill to see if that was possible, it was, we switched to that system, I can tell my birds are healthier for it, and it's less stressy for us humans.

That said, I do reserve the right to continue tweaking my feed if I feel I can do better.

And yes, we could save a few pennies by feeding layer rations to the layers, and chick starter to the chicks, etc. Except my breeders are layers in the off season and are also broody hatching and raising my chicks, and the broodies and chick are mixed in with both the breeders and layers. So, all the birds would have to be very honest about following my instructions about what feed to eat to make that work ...

For what it's worth, when I was chasing the "feed economy" ideal and had several types of feed going at once, I could NOT get anyone else here to understand how to put the right feed into the right feeders. And we're a smart bunch. It was maddening. It's so much saner here using breeder rations as our base feed. The birds are sure doing better.

It comes from both Leslie. Do you really think that a young growing bird needs the same thing as a mature adult bird? Do you think dietary requirements are the same for a broiler and a layer? A performance athlete and a couch potato? We are not even discussing apples and oranges.

The science of Poultry nutrition has been about performance. Not economics alone. It has always been about performance. Performing birds are economical. Non performing birds are not economical. Being cheap is a false economy. The commercial industry knows that. The advances in poultry nutrition have played a part in the superior performance that we enjoy today. True, it mostly genetic, but we have come along ways with poultry nutrition. And that is not from being cheap.

Cheap is a false economy. Profit is realized from investment.

Where the economics come into play (mostly) is the ingredients used to make the ration. Different choices in different parts of the world. Also limiting waste. Why feed expensive protein to a bird that does need it, and will pass it on in their feces? That would not make any sense. So yes, economics plays a part, but more in not including what is not needed. The dietary needs change as they mature, and according to their purpose. This is elementary.

No they do not care about feather condition etc. They are not feeding show birds.

So you are right and wrong, and wrong and right. It is not all about economy. It is about economical performance. Economical would be feeding them all waste bread, but that would not work well for performing birds, and as a result would not be economical. The birds need what they need to perform. Never in the history of poultry nutrition have we had birds that could reliably lay 320 eggs a year and weigh as little as they do. They could not do it eating scratch feed.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I think the notion of specific rations for specific ages & types of birds comes from valuing economics more than nutrition.

Poultry Science has traditionally been more about economics ... how to produce poultry products as cheaply as possible ... so often was about finding the specific balance of nutrients the birds need in order to perform, and including just those nutrients in that balance and nothing more. You can get away with the slim margins on the balance of nutrients when the birds are going to die soon anyway.

But, as @gjensen noted, breeders are different. Breeders need to be fed well enough to be in great condition well before breeding season in order to to produce super nutrient-dense fertile eggs so the chicks that grow inside them will be healthy. Breeders are expected to live longer than meat birds or layers. By a lot. And so on.

We've always known that birds do better (health and performance) on extra nutrition (this is true for both broilers and layers), and we're starting to understand how the extra nutrition will produce more nutritious poultry products.

So, I thought I'd throw out there the notion that hobby farm breeders it MAY make sense ... financial sense, nutritional sense, common sense ... to use a breeder ration as a base feed for all the birds. I decided to consult a feed nutritionist/mixer/custom mill to see if that was possible, it was, we switched to that system, I can tell my birds are healthier for it, and it's less stressy for us humans.

That said, I do reserve the right to continue tweaking my feed if I feel I can do better.

And yes, we could save a few pennies by feeding layer rations to the layers, and chick starter to the chicks, etc. Except my breeders are layers in the off season and are also broody hatching and raising my chicks, and the broodies and chick are mixed in with both the breeders and layers. So, all the birds would have to be very honest about following my instructions about what feed to eat to make that work ...

For what it's worth, when I was chasing the "feed economy" ideal and had several types of feed going at once, I could NOT get anyone else here to understand how to put the right feed into the right feeders. And we're a smart bunch. It was maddening. It's so much saner here using breeder rations as our base feed. The birds are sure doing better.

I agree. All feeds are about convenience plus that they are about feeding them the same way as commercial egg and broiler farms feed their chicken.

I've been lurking here a bit and wanted to ask, while you guys are on the subject of feed; Do any of you use fermented feed with your breeders? And/or do any of you try to produce your own chicken feed with gardens/mealworms/etc?

Where I'm at, nobody seems to care about anything organic or frufru, the types of feed are always changing at the feed stores, and a couple of the smaller ones have reduced what they have available to only a few options. I can't even get non-medicated chick starter anywhere so I have to go with game bird feed. I have to drive almost two hours just to get non-medicated goat feed. I just don't believe in medicating before there is anything wrong, so sue me...

I guess where I'm getting at, is I would rather not have to rely on the ever-changing feed stores and if I can produce my own feed, and breed chickens more suitable to free ranging, all the better. I just don't know enough to make sure they are getting all the nutrition they need...yet...

You can do that where you live. I just walked out among my chicken pastures and there is nothing growing.
It's all about one's climate.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

@mirandaleecon We've used Fermented Feed here ... it's part of how I make the pelleted Breeder Ration suitable for very young chicks. Wet feed is a great way to incorporate dry supplements. I think the FF helps give the chicks a healthy start. FF certainly helps birds stay hydrated. There tends to be less waste with wet feed. And so on.

That said, I have mixed feelings about Fermented Feed. I am concerned about breeding toxins into the feed that way, and also about the water soluble supplements becoming useless. Many of the claims about how awesome Fermented Feed is are not substantiated, or are simply not accurate. Like ... some people don't understand how the small bump in protein percentage works, and claim that you can take a 9% ingredient and turn it into a 29% feed by fermenting it (you can't, but they think a 20% boost in protein means you ADD the 20 to the base percentage,

).

If you're concerned about toxins but still want some of the benefits of a fermented product, there are a variety of yeast products available, like Diamond V's livestock yeasts (lots of feed companies are adding these to feed-store poultry feed these days). Nutritional Yeast or Brewer's Yeast can be bought at the grocery store and both can be added to poultry feed (look at the nutritional profile of both to decide which one you want ... I prefer Nutritional Yeast).

As for making your own feed from scratch, it's an expensive pain, but if you have access to the ingredients, and trust yourself to do the math right, go for it. My guess is that people who don't have access to a wide range of poultry feeds probably don't have access to a wide range of individual ingredients. I don't trust myself with the math.

Perhaps you can order your feed in bulk. Many feed stores are willing to place special orders. Some people have access to Azure Standard (serves as a distributor for a variety of brands). You could start a little buying group for custom feed to share the expense of delivery and split up big orders. There are lots of options. Or ... use a commercial feed as your base, and buy some key supplemental ingredients online or at the grocery store.

 

[gjensen]

I've been lurking here a bit and wanted to ask, while you guys are on the subject of feed; Do any of you use fermented feed with your breeders? And/or do any of you try to produce your own chicken feed with gardens/mealworms/etc?

Where I'm at, nobody seems to care about anything organic or frufru, the types of feed are always changing at the feed stores, and a couple of the smaller ones have reduced what they have available to only a few options. I can't even get non-medicated chick starter anywhere so I have to go with game bird feed. I have to drive almost two hours just to get non-medicated goat feed. I just don't believe in medicating before there is anything wrong, so sue me...

I guess where I'm getting at, is I would rather not have to rely on the ever-changing feed stores and if I can produce my own feed, and breed chickens more suitable to free ranging, all the better. I just don't know enough to make sure they are getting all the nutrition they need...yet...

Approximately 60% of their ration should be a low fiber high energy feed source. 20-25% can be low fiber tender and digestible greens. Animal protein is complete, so there is not a concern with the amino acid profile. Balance the main ration accordingly.

Every soil type has a deficiency. Be aware of your mineral deficiencies, and compensate accordingly.

What the birds need more than anything (in the largest quantities) is high energy. They have very fast metabolisms, and they burn a lot of calories for their size.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

It comes from both Leslie. Do you really think that a young growing bird needs the same thing as a mature adult bird? Do you think dietary requirements are the same for a broiler and a layer? A performance athlete and a couch potato? We are not even discussing apples and oranges.

The science of Poultry nutrition has been about performance. Not economics alone. It has always been about performance. Performing birds are economical. Non performing birds are not economical. Being cheap is a false economy. The commercial industry knows that. The advances in poultry nutrition have played a part in the superior performance that we enjoy today. True, it mostly genetic, but we have come along ways with poultry nutrition. And that is not from being cheap.

Cheap is a false economy. Profit is realized from investment.

Where the economics come into play (mostly) is the ingredients used to make the ration. Different choices in different parts of the world. Also limiting waste. Why feed expensive protein to a bird that does need it, and will pass it on in their feces? That would not make any sense. So yes, economics plays a part, but more in not including what is not needed. The dietary needs change as they mature, and according to their purpose. This is elementary.

No they do not care about feather condition etc. They are not feeding show birds.

So you are right and wrong, and wrong and right. It is not all about economy. It is about economical performance. Economical would be feeding them all waste bread, but that would not work well for performing birds, and as a result would not be economical. The birds need what they need to perform. Never in the history of poultry nutrition have we had birds that could reliably lay 320 eggs a year and weigh as little as they do. They could not do it eating scratch feed.

If that's what it reads like I'm stating, then I'm doing really poor writing. That's not what I think at all.

What I'm trying to state is that while layers will do quite well on a specially formulated breeder ration (as long as there is oyster shell on the side), the reverse is not true (breeders won't do well on a commercial layer ration). And I'm trying to state that a specially formulated breeder ration can be formulated to work as a Base Feed for chicks and ducks. By "Base Feed" I mean a feed to which something is added. There may be things in the special ration that, strictly speaking, are not necessary for layers, but those things will not harm the layers, and, in fact, will help the layers be healthier for longer and lay more nutritious eggs.

So, for those of us managing small mixed flocks with birds of various ages, maybe including ducks (hello extra niacin that the chickens don't need but certainly wont hurt them, hello extra scratch in the duck pen), both sexes (goodbye high levels of included calcium which is made available on the side instead), always seems to be populated with at leas some molting birds (bring on the fishmeal, etc., for a better balance of amino acids), and vacationing birds (limit the treats so these birds don't get too fat) and a prolonged period of feeding chicks due to hatch dates potentially leaking well into summer (nice to see you again fish meal, etc., we love you) ... a breeder ration might be a sensible choice. Particularly if buying in bulk. Or having a high need for simplicity. Using one super nutritious ration will satisfy everyone's needs without harming anyone, because, as you've pointed out, the birds that don't need the extra nutrients will just poop them out. And we're talking about smallish numbers of birds here, so the "waste" of overfeeding a percentage of the birds is minimal compared to the time savings spent on management, etc.

What you've written about the Poultry Science and the economy of performance is exactly what I was writing about (or trying to). A LOT of research has gone into determining how much we can cut back on the expensive ingredients before performance suffers? How much of the cheaper ingredients can we include before performance suffers. How does human time factor in? Performance is measured in a lot of ways, depending ...

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Density of the feed is another consideration. They can only eat so much at a time, but like to be full-ish. So an overly dense food might make them over eat, while a feed with a lot of filler can fill up their crops but leave them unable to consume enough nutrients.

Also, they say the timing of when layers should consume calcium, and the format of that calcium, is important. Oyster shell available so they can pick up calcium on the way to bed is good for the layers, they say.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I posted in Emergencies, but wanted to ask you guys - I hope you don't mind the cross post:

Three small terrier type dogs got into my yard this afternoon. When I drove up, I found feathers all over the driveway, and the dogs around. I chased them off, and after some searching, found my Cream Legbar cockerel wedged into a hiding place behind a fence. He was apparently able to get away from them enough that his only injuries were that all of his tail feathers, a lot of the feathers along his backside, and some of his wing feathers were plucked - some bloody. He's got abrasions, but only one wound (not terribly big, though a gouge) on the top of his tail nub. He has no broken bones that I can tell. I do not think he has internal injuries though time will tell. He appears "in shock" for lack of another term - sort of stunned. I brought him inside, in a large dog crate lined with pine shavings, and a cardboard box at one end, on its end, with a towel. There is a cup of water and he is drinking well. His mouth is a little open. He seems a little off balance, but can stand.

I find that, even though I've read plenty, I am "in shock" myself and my brain just isn't working on what to do. I cleaned his wounds with Vetricyn, examined him, and gave him water. I was going to give him some scrambled eggs. I wanted to know what other advice anyone had for supporting him at this time.

1) What type of bird , age and weight (does the chicken seem or feel lighter or thinner than the others.) Cream Legbar cockerel, 33 weeks
2) What is the behavior, exactly. NA
3) How long has the bird been exhibiting symptoms? Acute attack about 2-3 hours ago.
4) Are other birds exhibiting the same symptoms? NA
5) Is there any bleeding, injury, broken bones or other sign of trauma. Bleeding and some abrasions where plucked, one tail wound. Abrasions around wattles and comb (which are very red/purplish).
6) What happened, if anything that you know of, that may have caused the situation. See above. Dog attack - I believe he was leading them away from the girls.
7) What has the bird been eating and drinking, if at all. Has been offered water, drinking ok, have not offered food yet - wondering what I should offer.
8) How does the poop look? Normal? Bloody? Runny? etc. No poops so far. Vent seems ok, but abraded area.
9) What has been the treatment you have administered so far? Cleaned wounds, brought inside.
10 ) What is your intent as far as treatment? For example, do you want to treat completely yourself, or do you need help in stabilizing the bird til you can get to a vet? Will likely treat myself, not take to vet.
11) If you have a picture of the wound or condition, please post it. It may help. I will try to get one. Need to get the other birds put up for the night.
12) Describe the housing/bedding in use In 48" dog crate lined with pine shavings, with large cardboard box on end at one side , and towel in it.

(I may be setting eggs from his girls earlier than expected...)

- Ant Farm