BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Rock Home Isle]

   What is your target weight? The standard weight acts like an anchor. That has to be one of the overlooked, under appreciated, and neglected points. It helps keep us in check.

  I do not know if you do this or not, but I like to handle y birds off of the roost at night. With just a flashlight I am not seeing the birds as much as I am feeling the bird. If that makes any sense. I am checking for mites, or this or that, but I handle them while I am at it. I have gotten a little better at feeling what I am looking for. The feather can fool you. Especially on the sot feathered breeds. The more "fluff" they have the harder it is to really tell.

 What I do not get about the anti SOP crowd and vice versa is that we are doing the same thing. Different breeds, different ideals, and different points of emphasis. The process is largely the same. There has to be an ideal type, or there cannot be a consistency in performance. If the birds are all over the place, the results will be all over the place.

 I have had more than a few commercial layers along the way. Handling them I began to realize just how consistent their type was. Yes they have pinched tails, poor feather quality, etc. etc. Still their type is very consistent and it reveals they consistency in type of the parent flocks. I am not saying that they all look the same though they are similar. I am saying that they all feel the same. They also have very consistent weights.

 Feather can make the type, but it is not real type. Feather's contribution to type should be reserved to softening, accentuating, or highlighting lines. What does the work is under the feather, and that is where our largest concern should be.

 I have my ideal type, and I found a breed that has it. As rare as they are, I found a flock that has it. It is not evident in all of the birds, and the rest still need work. The building blocks are there. I think I have what it takes to have a bird that consistently lays 220-240 large to extra large eggs and have the longevity to be worth keeping around  for a few years.  A fourth and fifth if they are any good, and can contribute. They are large enough to eat the extra cockerels, make use of the hens, or cull pullets. Still not so large as to be especially wasteful. Free ranged, they can give me more for less.

 My mind and ideas have moved away fro roasting birds. The priority with chickens is usually eggs, but what to do with the extra males? I like them as light fryers, and flesh for recipes. Much more economical and sustainable. I would like a few birds for roasting, but think a half dozen capons can satisfy this want.

 To me, I do not care as much about whether a breed is an accepted variety, project birds, or a Standardized breed. I like to see well bred birds. I like to look at a bird and say this bird would be good or this or that. I especially like to see a uniform flock of well bred birds that perform. They do not have to have precisely correct color, as long  they have good color, and very good type. These birds might not win the Ohio Nationals, but anyone that knows the breed (or the birds in general) could appreciate them. And what it took to get them there.

 I am not a fan of ornamental breeds, but I can appreciate the skill that requires to get them right. I am not a fan of fad egg colors, but I appreciate an egg that has good, shape, size and quality. I like to see the skill of the breeder in the egg carton. A uniform dozen eggs of good size and quality. Inside and out.

 I like experiments, but what I like more is goals and progress. The fun is in the doing. The setbacks and the successes. One month I am disgusted, and the next I am encouraged. Every spring brings new hope.

Reads like free thought...great post, indepth understanding of goals, desires and a pathway to success.

I hope he finds the solution to his rubix cube.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote: I have to agree with you there - lots to be learned from reading (and rereading) his posts.

Quote: My Sweetie (NN) has very bare shoulders and crop area (only a single neck feather), and she has these two adorable red spots right on top of each shoulder. It looks like someone applied rouge...

- Ant Farm

 

[Kassaundra]

If your "experimental" supper didn't turn out looking to pretty, cover it in cheese .......... it will be okay! lol

 

[DesertChic]

If your "experimental" supper didn't turn out looking to pretty, cover it in cheese .......... it will be okay! lol

Oh, I plan to roast this bird in red wine so it will be "pretty" in every way.

 

[Kassaundra]

Oh, I plan to roast this bird in red wine so it will be "pretty" in every way.

LOL I was talking about my experimental supper tonight! To much green veggies and balsamic vinegar, tasted good but looked drab an ichy. Add a little shredded pepper jack cheese on top and all's good! lol

 

[mikeldb]

So I'm working on a blue Andalusian x game rooster cross I'm hoping for some thing like this

this is the rooster

any thoughts?

 

[Rock Home Isle]

 Hogan's "Call Of The Hen" is a good book to read. Some of the information is dated, there is a little hype mixed in, but much of the concepts are solid. He was pretty sharp, and knew the birds.

 As was mentioned, the ALBC has a condensed version. The concepts used there has it's roots in the observations that Hogan made.

 It is more about culling than breeder selection.

 You cannot beat trap nesting, if you can do it practically. I cannot. I wish that I could.

 With a condensed version of the Hogan method, and tracking the measurable that you cannot see by looking at the birds, you can do well. A small flock owner has an advantage in being able to know the individual birds. Getting to know them over time, and tracking them over an entire laying cycle. A small flock owner has a disadvantage in quantity. You cannot test and prove as many birds.

 I think that head size and shape is relevant to the fitness of the bird. I do not believe that it makes a bird pre potent or not. Not as I understand and use the term. It is still important. I also like to see an eye filling a socket. It has seamed that it is an indicator of good health and vigor. I do not like seeing eyes that do not fill the socket. Misshapen eyes bug me to.

 One of the thing that fascinates me about the hobby, is that it is challenging, and there are a lot of things to consider.

I go back to Hogan's work often and read his theories. Some of his peers did not respect his work, but he really had a lot of base knowledge. I always wonder about the practices that he didn't write about...what did he keep to himself?

And his quips on Phrenology crack me up...it was just a different time period back then.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

 It is hard to do.

 You want to see how his daughters perform. Not his sisters.

 Not everyone can do it, but you can identify prosperous males over time. I call it proving them. It is more out what they give you than they are.

 Also consider keeping as many pullets through  complete laying cycle, their molt, and as they are coming back into lay. In other words, it is my opinion that it helps to know who waited longest to molt, and came back into lay fastest after starting the molt. Then who comes into full lay earliest in the spring. They are often the same birds. Length of lay, so to speak. Some of these birds have 2-4 weeks more laying time than others, depending on what you re working with. Could mean 8-20 more eggs per year. We would certainly frown on the first bird to molt, and takes twice as long to molt as another.

 The little things add up, and is often were the Standard bred birds are lacking. These points are long forgotten. These little things can be the difference between 170 and 200 eggs per year.

 Like you said, more males is good. The old advice is keep half as much more than what you need. If you have four families, that might mean 6 males.

This is such great insight into breeding.

In a breed improvement program:

I look to see who feathered first, top 10% of the birds that feather 1st get banded.
Next I look at weight of roosters between 8 weeks or 10 weeks. Again the top 10% get banded.
All early molters get culled. All late molters get banded.
For hens I'll band the top 25% that lay early. And band the top 10% that lay first after molting.

I apply Hogan's theories to my layers in late October and again in February or early March with all my birds, pullet flock and older flock. Birds that meet Hogan's criteria, and keeping breed characteristics in mind, I band the top 15% of this group. After this point I separate all banded birds and pick my breeders.

Then I merge my yearling birds with my older flock, and raise chicks for the next pullet flock. Roosters/Cockerals are separated from Hens/Pullets and raised separately.

Just from what I recall....geeez, a long time ago.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

So I'm working on a blue Andalusian x game rooster cross I'm hoping for some thing like this this is the rooster any thoughts?

Nice! I assume the hen is going to be pure Andalusian? I think your cross will end up with a lighter hackle than the rooster in the first photo.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

 That is right. Most would not want to know how they fattened them. In the case of Sussex, often wheat and milk, they crammed them into little fattening cages. They only had room to eat and drink. You can find examples of these fattening batteries on line.

 In my opinion, once a bird starts to crow, they are not worth eating.

Caponization?