BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[DesertChic]

Is the red from the sun on the naked skin?

Much of the skin that's still red was covered with feathers, such as on the legs, so I don't think so. I have to admit...I'm perplexed.

 

[Kassaundra]

I'm wondering too. So far he's been brining for nearly a day and he's still all pinked up. His daddy's skin is always red...ALWAYS, not just during periods of arousal so I'm wondering if it's a genetic trait.

Were his testes any larger then ususal?

 

[Kev]

I'm wondering too. So far he's been brining for nearly a day and he's still all pinked up. His daddy's skin is always red...ALWAYS, not just during periods of arousal so I'm wondering if it's a genetic trait.

Kassaundra is right. It is a combination of testosterone and direct sunlight.

Red exposed skin is a sign of healthy, vigorous bird. Even if the area appears covered up.. it appears any amount of direct exposure is enough for a skin reaction. During dust bathing, preening, separating the vent feathers to poop etc.

I'm not sure if it can be bred for or away from.. I simply appreciate it as a sign of a healthy bird.

 

[DesertChic]

Were his testes any larger then ususal?

No...pretty average.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I'm wondering too. So far he's been brining for nearly a day and he's still all pinked up. His daddy's skin is always red...ALWAYS, not just during periods of arousal so I'm wondering if it's a genetic trait.

LOL he looks pre- seasoned.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

  I read that a few years back, and it resonated with me then. That probably illustrates my interest and position as well any. I am most interested in seeing these breeds put back to work.

  I question how practical the notion really is, but I would like to see an alternative to the status quo.

 Call it nostalgia, or whatever, but I am most interested in using Standardized pure breeds. I am interested in non standard breed as well, but I do tend to think we should take care of what we have.
 I will use the Minorca for example. I do not think there is any good old time Rose Combed White Minorca out there. They were common at one time. It would be nice to see a good looking flock on quality pasture doing what they were bred to do. No, they aren't as efficient as the Leghorns, but they were famous for their extra large eggs.

 The article mentioned the oldest breeds, and how they were replaced by our more modern Standard breeds. They did get replaced by more productive breeds, that were developed in a time when we had a surplus of grain.
 The oldest breeds might be less productive, but they could be potentially be more productive under a more rugged setting. Many of the oldest breeds were better suited for a low input management style. How we kept poultry changed with the times also. Are they genetically capable of such now? That would be debatable because we have not kept them like for a long time.

 One thing I have wondered about is with all of the interest in being more sustainable or preparing for harder times (prepping), all of the interest is in the highest input breeds. I have wondered about this. The most "sustainable" breeds, are the ones no one is interested in.

Wonderful insight and depth of knowledge

 

[Rock Home Isle]

 The charts do not give good information. Kind of like judging someone by their reputation before you know them. Too much variation between strains to be reliable.  The charts are good to get a list of breeds to investigate when we do not know what breeds are out there. Otherwise they help as much to tell you what color eggs they lay.

 It is hard to recommend someone a breed. It is easier to recommend breeds that are not good for beginners, but beginners are never interested in them. They are more of an acquired taste.

 A breed/strain that is good for beginners is the German strain of New Hampshire. I say that because they are pleasing to the eye, are pretty good layers, but most of all they are calm and easy to manage. I am not recommending the breed. I am offering the strain as a good option.
There are a few people breeding them in Georgia.

Again...nail on the head.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

 Arielle, you know that all of that varies by strain.

 I think the Dominique is under rated. They have a good laying type and have a lot of potential. There type is a lot like a Leghorn with a little more flesh. They could be selected to mature fast enough to reach some level of efficiency. I like their size. Large enough to be considered dual purpose, but small enough to not be classed with the big birds with big appetites. They could be, should be, thrifty. They also have a reputation for going broody.
 Like everything else, it would vary by strain. I do believe they have a lot of potential as a "homestead" type bird. No one wants to hear this, but the hatchery bird do not have the greatest reputation. it might be best to find someone that knows their birds, and has done well with their birds.
 As the oldest American breed, I would like to see them do well.

 Think about what they were. They were probably game mixes early on. The were a bird for the small farm with no cabinet incubator, no electricity for fans or lights, their was no Tractor Supply etc. Yes they got passed p by the more popular Rocks, and the Rocks went in another direction. At a time when agriculture was becoming mechanized, there was plenty of grain, and it was affordable. The Dominique on the other hand ruled the day when people were settling the west, the south was entirely rural except for a few cities here and there. The birds got thrown a little corn, and the birds figured the rest out. In return they were decent layers of medium sized eggs, and reared their own replacements.

 I mentioned the Anconas, and I would stand by that. A very under appreciated beautiful and productive bird. On a small farm where they were allowed to range, they would eat a lot less than the big birds, and produce as much or more.

 The Sicilian Buttercup is a unique and delightful bird. If they had been imported recently with a beautiful story, they would be all the rage. Instead they sit in obscurity. They are not famous as Leghorn type producers, but they are a light fowl that could get much of their food from the tree line. They could be decent layers, where the hens were as colorful as the males. A lot less feed, and enough medium sized eggs to keep a family in eggs. I would find the best I could from someone that showed them, and then find the best hatchery for them. I would go from there.

 I think the Minorca is too big too fall in this category, but they could be good birds for niche market eggs when free ranged.

 The Catalana is probably the most overlooked and rare of all of them, but I am tickled with them. The hang up is that they are not really available. They are all business. I have went on about them enough, but they are a good example of how the best farm type birds do not interest anyone.

 The Campine and Hamburg are good looking birds that could be good layers, and active on range. They are not going to eat as much as the big birds. I love a good looking Golden Campine. Some strains might not be as healthy as they should. I have heard that, but we hear a lot of things that are not true.

 Cubalaya would be an excellent example.

 I could name a lot more, and this could be debated until the end of time. On this point I am saying that the lighter breeds that eat less (and cost less), rustle up more of their own, and are as productive or more productive than the big birds are worth considering. They are the most neglected and overlooked. We prefer big, fluffy, and cuddly LOL.
 The less they need, the more sustainable they are.

 In third world countries what you see running around the farms are often games and game mixes. Our breeds started that way. Like the Dominique. We have moved up and past that for better, but I think there is a value and lesson there worth keeping in mind. That is what makes those birds sustainable.

This is such great information...wow.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

 I agree with you in theory. I think that you know what my main interest is.

 I also understand that people like to create and experiment. That is in our nature, and how we have what we have. That is how I started in this hobby. 20 years ago chickens were not online or the latest fad. I started by experimenting with feed store chicks. I think there can be a natural evolution of sorts. There was for me. At a point, the challenge of breeding the complete package appealed to me.

 My original interest was production and it is still a very big part of how I see things.

 Two things came together for me, and made a big impression. One was a batch of feed store production reds. In their second generation, there was one chick that grew faster than the rest, and was lighter in color. This male was far and beyond the others in the rate he feathered out and fleshed out. He was also lighter in color and I liked his color. Mature he was shorter than the others (proportionally), but larger. Also a wider and was a deeper bird. I was familiar with NHs, but not like I am now. He reminded e more of a NH. He was a throwback.
 Anyways I used on a couple hens. I did not get any like him, but intermediate between the two. I decided to put him with a few of his daughters, and that is where I saw the progress. My interest in the breed New Hampshire was born. So to speak.
 Now today had I posted pictures of my progress to those in the know, they would have criticized what I had done. Even that I learned more about breeding poultry in that experiment, than I have since that time. I learned the fundamentals of inheritance and making real progress. I lost those birds to a pack of wandering dogs. I was probably 24 or 25 then. So 15 years ago.

 I started looking for some replacements. It was out of season for the feed store chicks, so I started asking around. I found a farmer that raised Rhode Island Reds. I thought what I was raising was Rhode Island Reds until I saw these. I fell in love with them. I was impressed by their size, and their uniformity across the flock. I did not know such birds existed. The first thing that struck me was how they looked like a picture and that they were shaped like a brick. This was fundamental in me being able to see a breed's type. They were so different than what I had gotten used to, what made them different stuck out to me.
 This was an older gentleman, and he saw my interest. He set me up with a small flock. A cockerel, two hens , and four pullets. These birds were not just attractive, but they were good layers. I loved their big rich brown eggs. They were larger eggs than what I was getting.
 Anyways, it came time to move.  I would not be set up for chickens, so I gave them away. When I was ready I went back to get a new start. The man that I gave them to did not have them anymore, and the older gentleman was not around anymore. This taught me how easy it was to loose things like this.

 I still had that NH like bird in my head so I decided was going to find a good line of NHs. I spent five years looking for something that I wanted. I had no idea how rare the breed had become. I tried the hatcheries, and was not impressed. Most were just light colored red layers. They were not NHs. I tried Cackle Hatchery's NHs and they were a little closer. I would say that they were NHs, but they were light in weight and were rather shallow birds. I was getting closer though.
 Then I started looking on the internet.  I found some that were better than I had been seeing, and gave the a try. The quality was poor, but I was getting closer. I raised them for a few years, but I kept looking. I stumbled across Kathy, and she had just got some birds from someone that got them from someone. She told me that I could find some pictures here, and that is how I ended up here. Four generations of NHs later, they are still the best that I know of. They are lacking in certain areas, from what I came to understand about NHs, but better than any alternative I have been able to find.  I  spent around five years trying and looking for New Hampshires before then. They were not available. It took an import from Germany to change that. One of the best American breeds of all time was disappearing.

 So I get it. I came to realize that it was important to hold on to what we have, and try to do something with them. However, I got there by experimenting with feed store chicks.. Some things I picked up on then, I still have with me now. Like looking for the birds to have eyes that fill the socket. That is still a pet peeve of mine. Birds that held their wings well. Pinched birds, etc. I picked up on  lot of things that the birds taught me. Not any online mentoring. Heck, I did not even know anyone that bred poultry. Experimenting with feed store chicks taught me a lot.

 People new to poultry will be drawn to a variety of things. Whether it be color, or a story. Birds get overhyped. They come and they go. If they enjoy it enough, they will settle into what they like and what they want to do. And they will be all the wiser for having gone through the process. On many levels, I am still new to poultry. Maybe not keeping them, but trying to do what I am doing now.

This is so true of our hobby.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Here we go for those with short memories...

 You do not to pay attention to the SOP. You are doing something "new".

 What you need is to define your own standard. You have to have the type set in and clearly in your mind. You are looking for your own ideal, so you must have an ideal type in mind. Unless type is identical to a Standard variety (which would make it that breed), it will not be especially helpful. You need to have the type idealized to select the following generation.

 If there is a color variety that exists in the Standard, the description of that color could be helpful.

 Keeping the top 10% is the general advice. The emphasis is that your best birds are in that top 10%. You can make choices that are not precisely in that range. For example the first generation will only have as much variation as the flocks the parents come from. In other words the initial cross will be relatively consistent. Relative to the consistency the parent flocks had.
 If the parent flocks are consistent the initial cross will be consistent.  Forget about the 10% rule in the first generation. It would be irrelevant.

 The next generation will be more variable. They will start going all over the place. Now you are looking for birds that have the type you are looking for. Hopefully you chose breeds that have the pieces and parts to put it together. If everything is not there, whether it is in the bird's genotype or phenotype, a third bird or breed will be necessary. It has to be there, to get them there.

 You have to find the birds that have the type closest to the ideal that you have established before the project started. Then you can pick the birds that are closest to this ideal. It would be wise to hold onto any traits that these individuals do not have. You do not want to lose what you need, or you will be looking out again.

 You did not need to hatch that many from the first generation cross, because the results were relatively consistent. The second generation will require some real quantity if you want to make progress. As much or more in the following.

 Once a collection of individuals is identified as being close to the ideal, now you have to tighten up. Keeping the mating small and emphasizing the merits of those individuals. You need to magnify there influence in order to have some control. The variability will continue to be high in the offspring, so offspring similar in type to their parents probably should be bred back to their parents. In breeding is not a concern at this point, and you are doing this simultaneously in a at least a few families.

 In about five years (with educated choices), five hundred birds, and about 7500.00 later you will begin to have the type set.

 This is just to get the type to start coming consistently.

Amen...the way you take the information and make readable simple...what great posts