BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Arielle]

Quote: I have found a few people on BYC with DC that lay well-- they don't have SQ and the birds look much different than SQ. I would buy from those people if I wanted DC.

Technically my SS lay too many eggs for a sussex. THe hatchery effect apparently. Sussex are supposed to be moderate layers for a dual purpose breed that is meant to be primarily a meat breed.

 

[hellbender]

I"m not one to caponize--- though I did look thoroughly at the dark cornish. I'm assuming you are talking abouut a productio dark cornish and not a SQ DC which apparently lay poorly.

I like the SS even if I can never get them to be meat birds again. THey are my favorites above all others that I have raised for their personalities and foraging. NEver see one just standing around, or sun bathing---busy busy busy.

Just liking them is good enough!

 

[hellbender]

Has this been your experience? With birds from where? Folks I've talked to with dark Cornish say they don't lay well at all. If you have different experience I'd love to hear it.

I have owned a few, almost yearly and my neighbor buys them every year. I get mine from him for caponizing his when I do mine.

His wife keeps the pullets and I see them laying as well as most. They eventually cull...(CAN) the pullets at about age 1 year but freeze the capons. I get some of the canned meat too and it's really good. All it costs is returning the rings and jars.

 

[gjensen]

I would like to see more information on the recreation of this breed-- who did the work and what breeds were used.

I contacted a sussex breeder and trust that her knowledge is far greater than mine and she has assured me that the SS is not a re-created breed. IT took almost 50 years to get it to be a reasonable type and color, so honestly I can't see how it could be recreated in a matter of just a few years.

Look into what and when the original Sussex fowl was. Not what we have now. All of the Sussex varieties are created and not re created. The breed is. The original Sussex Fowl does not exist anymore. I am surprised that hardly any with Sussex knows that. It shouldn't because we generally listen to what someone else says. I heard it mentioned along the way, was curious about it(because I had not heard of it before), and looked it up for myself.

It is probably more accurate to say that what we have now is a different breed than the original, and only carries the same name.

Look it up for yourself. It will take a little digging.

The SS is not a breed, but a variety of a breed. You were right to say that all of the varieties were made differently, but that is not unusual. That is the case for Rocks, Wyandottes, etc. Not unusual for any breeds with multiple varieties. Using other varieties of the same breed to improve a variety is not an unusual occurrence, and generally an accepted method if it is felt necessary by the breeder. The main caution would be to use a variety that will not hurt over the long haul concerning color, and one that has good type.

 

[Arielle]

I have tossed a couple birds that I didn't want to eat and the scraps after processing 4 into the pressure canner--- praying all goes well. LEft abou 4-5 inches of head room. Feels good not to waste any, as long as it doesn't scorch ont he bottom of the pot.

 

[gjensen]

Ah, I see the miscommunication now. Not really a miscommunication ,
just a bit more clarification needed. In the beginning was the Dorking
breed. It has been around since Roman times by the historical record.
The Romans brought them to England. An interesting side note I found
in an article on Roman trade history was when the Romans got to England
they found the Brits had already been breeding poultry for color and style.
Anyway, The Dorking persisted thru the centuries and eventually, depending
on the geographic area where they were bred and raised, became called
the Dorking or Surrey fowl. From them, because of the geographic area in
which they were bred and raised, arose the Sussex fowl. They had a
different body style from the Dorking and one less toe than the Dorkings.
The Surrey fowl eventually fell out of favor and declined. I don't know if it
exists in pure form any more. So, tho the Sussex did spring from the Dorking,
that is its ancestral heritage, not a recreation of the Dorking. The Dorking
is the fountainhead of the Sussex.
Best Regards,
Karen

You have it, but there is a little more to it.

No clarification was needed. I had no interest in teaching anything, but encouraging someone to think about it and to find out for themselves. That is generally at the root of it. I do not know enough to lay out a bunch of facts. Just general comments meant to add to the discussion, and provoke thought. A shared perspective, so to speak. I am not sharp enough to do anymore than that.

 

[hellbender]

I have tossed a couple birds that I didn't want to eat and the scraps after processing 4 into the pressure canner--- praying all goes well. LEft abou 4-5 inches of head room. Feels good not to waste any, as long as it doesn't scorch ont he bottom of the pot.

They shouldn't scorch. I don't know what kind or size of cooker you have but it must be a 21 quart? Leave then cook for at least 30 or 40 minutes, above 10 psi. It requires not much water. Waiting to hear if the bones smunch up nicely!

 

[gjensen]

The lower the tail, the longer the back. A longer back is more important than depth of keel.
All other things being equal, choose the longer back rather than the longest keel.
I did not make this up, it comes from a 1921 9 page booklet by Sussex Judge William White Broomhead.
A Sussex breeder and Judge back when the Sussex was raised for its meat. He later when
on to become President of the British Poultry Club.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003137332;view=1up;seq=5
This is an excellent reference regardless of the variety one is breeding.
It deals with the general type and why it is so.
======
The pinched tail is indicative of a narrow rear end. You want breadth of body
for egg production sake and to make room for the reproductive organs. You can have a whipped tail in a body of proper width. The phrase "knows she has a liver." means the birds eats more than it needs to for the egg it produces.
Best,
Karen

The lower tail is not always related to the length of back. Plenty of short birds with low tails.

A longer back may be more important than length of keel. That is in relation to how long the back and how shallow the keel is. It is just not so simple to say it so simply. Not disagreeing on this point, but encouraging thought. Length of back is important in any breed, but especially longer birds like the Sussex. It is just important to keep the deep keel in mind, because it is also a defining characteristic of the breed. They need to be deep, long, and wide. BUT not an exaggeratedly deep keel. A good carcass is especially important for a table bird like the Sussex. The bird should sit flat in a pan.

I have seen some exhibition Sussex on line that had decent length and width, but shallow. I have not seen many that had all three.

A pinched tail is generally related to a pinched rear end.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Geoge-- I'm not sure what your point is-- are you saying that the ss today are not decended from the imports from England long ago??? So that reading The Sussex by the first pres of the UK group is useless??

It is not possible for any breed or variety to stay exactly the same when it is moved to another location. Many factors go into the survival of a breed or varity. I t can mean adding local blood, to selecting for egg production instead of meat production-- what ever the owner/breeder fancies.

SO I am still not clear about what you are trying to say.

 

[gjensen]

Do you know how to caponize? Here's a suggestion...Why not Dark Cornish? They lay better than SS and really do not need to be caponized...just my preference for a much better finish to the carcass.

Cornish is a breed that I wish would not have evolved to the extremes that it has today. I find them much more useful, able to naturally mate, and have the agility they would have had before. One of the few breeds that I prefer the hatchery examples over the exhibition strains.