BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

You do not have to cull the producers in a production flock either. Just select the best birds for the replacement flock. We can have our cake and eat it to.

Good luck, and have fun heading south.

Thanks for the 'Bon Voyage' George. And your prescription for selection is exactly what we do..at least once a year.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Can you both expand on this--- I need to understand it better-- I think you are saying that the best are kept no matter the generation, the best is the best. . . . .yes?

 

[Arielle]

http://familycow.proboards.com/thread/32411/applying-raw-milk-soil

I apologize first off that I can't remember who found this link and posted it on BYC, but Perhaps it is relavent to the conversation.

It lists a number of methods to improve the soils that grow the grasses and the resulting sugar content of the grasses and the improved health of the soils.

While much is antecdotal, I have no trouble with that as most of our information historically has been handled down one generation to another with out a hundred studies to prove it.

I know many here have livestock other than chickens. BUt I have noticed that my chickens head to my lawn every day despite the hopper full of feed ( yes, commercial pellets) and others head to the woods to scratch in the leaves. My lawn is rather low-- lower than a mower would cut it.

Curious if anyone has any thoughts on improving the microorganisms in the soil and the impact on the forages. ANd I mean anyone.

 

[BGMatt]

I always read what you take the time to write very carefully. I don't have the experience to offer much, but in reguard to the hobby nutritionist. . . . .

Commercial feeds while a good beginning are not all they are cracked up to be. Much nutrition is lacking in the way of fresh greens and veg material and the micronutritents that are not even adopted by the RDA-- the RDA is a very old concept, and is the premis of balancing ratins for the farm animal. (Using the RDA for each animal type). Real food is far more nutritious than heat processed grains fortified by vitamins/mineral packs.I'm not against the commercial feeds at all; rather they are a good begiining for anyone getting into raising animals. BUT the nutrition can be improved to far better than that.

I had a vet tell me that my old horse had cushings; I kindly disagreed but would take extra care in evaluating him in the spring during shed. All winter I worried that I had missed something; He was my old man that I had bought at 3 mo old before I had married. COme spring I watched him carefully, and the other horses. . . he shed out as fast or faster than the other younger horses. HE did not have cushings. Cushings is a metabolic disease that is created in horses by feeding them a diet high in grains-- my horse had been fed a diet high in hay. THe vet had made the error of assuming I fed like everyone else. For over 25 years he has been eating the way a horse should be eating: hay, and some fortified pellets. And living out on pasture , not stuck in a stall.

I love what you have to write , and will always take the time to thoroughly read what you have taken the time to write, but I do think nutrition for animals is as woefully behind what it should be as human nutrition is. I do think there is a lot of value in building diets made of items that are fresh and green, or a close as can be obtained to that,to be included in the diets. Even my kids often have a salad for breakfast, as do I. ANd cold cereals are long gone from this house.

I am not a debater; just stating my opionon on how I feed and why.

I agree completely about the commercial diets. But when I say to not muck around I think that people actually can make things WORSE by further unbalancing the diet. I'm very strict on my birds, they eat a blend I have custom milled for me that I finally a few years ago put my ego aside and let the owner of the mill (and well educated nutritionist) help with the diet. I will never go back to a commercial food. It is the only thing the birds get, I've been able to stop all supplements and additions to diet.

Matt I love this post. It makes me think. It raises two questions that I have not found good information on.

1. Do hatchery birds not have the genetic potential of standard bred birds. If not, why? If so, can it be realized?
2. I need to understand how or why poultry nutrition is often touted as something best left to professionals. I have seen miraculous recoveries made with natural, whole food, species appropriate diets. I'm not challenging you or your stance but I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around it. I will wonder aloud how poultry flourished before the advent of a commercialized food chain. Are we perhaps better served by our greater understanding of whole, unprocessed food sources but still led by the nose by an industry lining its own pockets?

Again, not a challenge....I come in peace

but I would dearly love some light shed on this, if only for my own education.

M

1. Sure. That's where they came from originally, they've been crossed and recrossed and then bred without any sort of selection, but the genetic potential is there, just buried very deep, in most breeds you could turn them into something respectable Standard wise in 5-10 years of heavy breeding and culling (multiple hundreds of chicks a year culled down to the top 5% or so for breeding). But if you're willing to undertake a multiple year project it only takes about 3 years to take a line that has been ignored production wise and turn it into a excellent production line.

2. It didn't flourish, that was part of my point. Commercial poultry overcame poor diets with superior genetics that COULD be productive on those diets. Previous to the commercialization of poultry, so pre-1940's it was still very common that the average backyard hen (not the commercial flock guys, they were starting to realize how to improve) was only laying 100-150 eggs a year, mostly living on scraps and forage and some occasional grains. Will the birds be healthy if you tweak their food and add better quality ingredients? Yes. Will they reach their full genetic potential production wise? No. Since this thread is about production that's why I make those statements.

 

[ljmecham2001]

I like to breed my birds for egg production, and then I just raise the roosters for meat.

 

[gjensen]

http://familycow.proboards.com/thread/32411/applying-raw-milk-soil

I apologize first off that I can't remember who found this link and posted it on BYC, but Perhaps it is relavent to the conversation.

It lists a number of methods to improve the soils that grow the grasses and the resulting sugar content of the grasses and the improved health of the soils.

While much is antecdotal, I have no trouble with that as most of our information historically has been handled down one generation to another with out a hundred studies to prove it.

I know many here have livestock other than chickens. BUt I have noticed that my chickens head to my lawn every day despite the hopper full of feed ( yes, commercial pellets) and others head to the woods to scratch in the leaves. My lawn is rather low-- lower than a mower would cut it.

Curious if anyone has any thoughts on improving the microorganisms in the soil and the impact on the forages. ANd I mean anyone.

Yes, Feed them. Aerate and feed the soil. Nor chemical fertilizers of course.

 

[LindaB220]

I like to breed my birds for egg production, and then I just raise the roosters for meat.

Great to have you. Where is Narnia again?

 

[Arielle]

Matt-- totally agree with you. When I have delt with nitritionists, they work for the big mill companies and clearly promote the products and are not that interested in custom blends for a peon. It is great that you have access to someone that is willing to share his/her expertise to provide a top quality feed for your birds. So for now, I know a few things to prevent upsetting the apple cart. . . . but on occassion have done so unwittingly and learned from it.


On a related subject.

ONe of my interests has migrated to "what is production?" As I mentioned before all my education was focused on commercial operations. Given the economic climate of today the commercial operatin must be huge and push- push push to be profitable and then there is the opposite, the small artisan driven farm.

THe nutrition of the product interests me. Yes meat can be grown in a testtube these days, BUT do we want it to be? IT will lack the mirconutrients of vitamins and minerals that as yet the scientists are only just discovering and have yet to know the benefits to fight disease and keep the body healthy.

In regards to production, the high production of lots of quick meat and daily large eggs, requires a high imput of nutrient dense resources. I have started to beleive that this is not the economial way to produce meat and eggs. OR not always. When grain is cheap, this works. Grain is not as cheap as it was 7-8 years ago here in the NE, but certainly cheaper I imagine than in 1900.I have been trying to understand the benefits of better forages as a means of feeding birds: ducks, chickens and turkeys. Of course forages are not free either, and take management and seed, etc to flourish. I find myself wishing I had understood this long ago, as I feel I have put the cart before the horse. Reversing the situation is a big challenge.

I did wonder if the old breeds were smaller and slower growing to match the feeeds available to it. As george was saying, the advent of grain production allowed a change in the type of chicken that could be grown.

Tha chris told me to use 27% protein for the first 8 weeks has me concerned: how can a broody out on pasture feed her chicks optiamlly = how can pasture provide 27% protein. It certainly needs to have a lot of insects . . . and mice. . . .

 

[LindaB220]

Hellbender, when is your expert coming to teach about poulardizing? Don't leave town before you give results and pics, please.

 

[BGMatt]

Matt-- totally agree with you. When I have delt with nitritionists, they work for the big mill companies and clearly promote the products and are not that interested in custom blends for a peon. It is great that you have access to someone that is willing to share his/her expertise to provide a top quality feed for your birds. So for now, I know a few things to prevent upsetting the apple cart. . . . but on occassion have done so unwittingly and learned from it.


On a related subject.

ONe of my interests has migrated to "what is production?" As I mentioned before all my education was focused on commercial operations. Given the economic climate of today the commercial operatin must be huge and push- push push to be profitable and then there is the opposite, the small artisan driven farm.

THe nutrition of the product interests me. Yes meat can be grown in a testtube these days, BUT do we want it to be? IT will lack the mirconutrients of vitamins and minerals that as yet the scientists are only just discovering and have yet to know the benefits to fight disease and keep the body healthy.

In regards to production, the high production of lots of quick meat and daily large eggs, requires a high imput of nutrient dense resources. I have started to beleive that this is not the economial way to produce meat and eggs. OR not always. When grain is cheap, this works. Grain is not as cheap as it was 7-8 years ago here in the NE, but certainly cheaper I imagine than in 1900.I have been trying to understand the benefits of better forages as a means of feeding birds: ducks, chickens and turkeys. Of course forages are not free either, and take management and seed, etc to flourish. I find myself wishing I had understood this long ago, as I feel I have put the cart before the horse. Reversing the situation is a big challenge.

I did wonder if the old breeds were smaller and slower growing to match the feeeds available to it. As george was saying, the advent of grain production allowed a change in the type of chicken that could be grown.

Tha chris told me to use 27% protein for the first 8 weeks has me concerned: how can a broody out on pasture feed her chicks optiamlly = how can pasture provide 27% protein. It certainly needs to have a lot of insects . . . and mice. . . .

But the old breeds were were not slower growing? That's part of what confuses me? We have what we tolerate as breeders, if you let birds grow out and not mature or start laying until 36 weeks or more that's what you'll get. I tried to point that out with my post about Langshans circa 1870's, they were mature and laying in 6-7 months (24-28 weeks), the old Plymouth Rock journals have similar lay and slaughter times. The Delaware and New Hampshire, probably the last "pure" breeds used commercially were market ready at 16 weeks for the males and females were laying at 20 weeks according to the old texts. So how did we get ourselves so far behind the 8-ball as they say? It's not universal, and maybe I'm guilty of what I mentioned others shouldn't do (making assumptions based on what I see on BYC), because I do see some folks with fully mature birds in the showroom at 6-7 months, not sure about laying but an immature Jersey Giant doesn't win champion of show at 7 months, and Leghorn pullets don't win the breed or class at 5 months. I think we have perhaps forgotten how to cull and how to breed and select for that faster growth and maturity. Or let lines get too "stale" because of this odd fear of outcrossing and fascination with "lines".

Your example of a broody hen is an interesting example, because in a thread about production and efficiency, a broody hen is the furthest thing from it. However you're right, a lot of bugs, worms, mice etc offer more than enough protein, especially with the young sprouted plants in the springtime when the hens would be raising those chicks. The other side of the coin is, what makes you think she's feeding her chicks optimally?