BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[southernmomma]

Quote:
Well summed up G. I do like when you contribute to a discussion.

You are correct, my thoughts do center on sustainability~ at least what I consider sustainable. It may differ from another's view. It would be interesting if people from each of the mentioned crowds had something to offer to the conversation. I know my own perceptions have changed dramatically in these last few weeks; there really is more than one way to skin a cat.

And speaking of cats......care to share any pictures, advances in your program, or general thoughts on your beautiful birds? Can you comment on any differences you've noted between hen-raised vs brooder chicks?

M

 

[gjensen]

We tried raising speckled sussex some years back because they kept coming up in discussion as the best dual purpose birds. They really weren't. Maybe it was the hatchery stock, and we also didn't feed them special rations. But they were better for soup than roasting.

Same goes for other dual purpose animals we tried...dexter cattle, pygora goats. Interesting experiments, but didn't really stand out for either purpose.

My area gets gold in winter, so I like to have a stouter bird with good feathering. I like a wide-based, short, triangular tail that doesn't stick up from the topline much. Not squirrel or rooster tail. I haven't done any testing yet to back my hunch, but it just seems like a bird with a bigger tail is putting energy into feathers, not eggs or meat. And I'm hoping the wide set base means wider pelvic bones. I'll definitely take notes when I go over my pullets this weekend, write down who has which kind of tail, then see how that pans out in terms of laying.

My leghorns aren't laying yet either, and are so flighty I haven't really handled them to check pelvic structure. But they have those skinny long tails I hate. Some of my ameraucana crosses have those tails too, so I guess I'll see who lays what soon enough. I planning to try a few leghorn crosses next season, just for the heck of it. My customers like pretty eggs, not white ones, so hopefully a cross will mean production and interesting shell colors.

Also, I've read most of the books on this list and gleaned a lot of ideas. I'm sure they are all old news to people here though - http://www.sustainablepoultrynetwork.com/highly-recommended-books-to-read/

Tail does not make much of a difference, but quantity of feather does make a big difference. It takes a lot of protein to develop excessive feather. On the other side of the coin, in cold weather, extra feather may mean less energy devoted to maintaining core body temperature. Especially if they are tighter fitting.

I live in the hot humid south, so extra feather has become a pet peeve of mine, and considered waste. If I lived in Alaska, I would view it differently. In between there would be an in between. For me.

I have never seen a Sussex built for roasting. They will require a bit of work to get hem where they should be. They have not been used like that in a long time. The largest of them, are more feather than flesh.

 

[Arielle]

Karen-- any literature ont he above question??

 

[gjensen]

Well summed up G. I do like when you contribute to a discussion.

You are correct, my thoughts do center on sustainability~ at least what I consider sustainable. It may differ from another's view. It would be interesting if people from each of the mentioned crowds had something to offer to the conversation. I know my own perceptions have changed dramatically in these last few weeks; there really is more than one way to skin a cat.

And speaking of cats......care to share any pictures, advances in your program, or general thoughts on your beautiful birds? Can you comment on any differences you've noted between hen-raised vs brooder chicks?

M

Variety and variety of perspectives is good. There is no moral right or wrong. They are chickens for goodness sake. My ideals are dependent on what is trying to be accomplished.

We go wrong when we think there is a wrong or right. Or when we hear a different perspective, we take it as we are being told wrong or right. We do not all use smilies. LOL.

What I like about these Cats is that they are bold and active, but they are not flighty. I like their confidence. They are competitive birds that are assertive foragers. The chicks are like that to. I am starting to let them out of their house. Today they are as far away as 100' from the house. This is the seventh time letting them out.

The mothers are great mothers, that are very protective. These means she keeps them away from me. When normally she would have come looking for a treat, she leads them away to a safe distance. That is a good trait, but it also takes longer for the growers to be hand tame afterwards. I think the solution is offering more treats to keep them coming to you, and removing the mother once the chicks do not need the heat. Maybe 6 wks.
They do adjust and adapt. it just takes a little more time.

 

[seventreesfarm]

I have never seen a Sussex built for roasting. They will require a bit of work to get hem where they should be. They have not been used like that in a long time. The largest of them, are more feather than flesh.

Yeah, I just think it's annoying how many publications aimed at newb steaders tout this or that breed as 'perfect' or 'dual-purpose' and the almost never are. At least not how they are currently bred, and not for people who actually grow their own food instead of collecting animals. It's like the authors read the old pre-industrial farm pamphlets and copy text into current articles. I suppose that sells magazines, rather than practical pieces about how to choose the right animals for particular situations, not just going by pretty breed pictures.

I can't wait to get to the point where I can fine tune for length/onset of molt, start of lay, etc. A few decades ago I bred a few different species of exotic finches. It was fun and educational and rewarding to see how much improvement I could add to my lines. But ultimately extremely impractical. I made money, but it was just a hobby. With chickens I get the same challenges, make a little money, but mainly I love improving my household's food supply and budget. We can eat our 'mistakes'

 

[Turk Raphael]

I would love a thread that had a little of everything....we're starting out on a crazy journey and I'm sure there's others doing the same thing. I'm just too lazy to find a different thread for everything I'm curious about

And your chicks arrived!! WooHoo!! From Cackle, right? I am so excited for you~ would you mind tracking weights and commenting on temperament as they grow? It doesn't need to be here, you could always just PM me.

M

Yes! Got them this morning and they are very lively little critters. I might be able to track weights but I will have to let them grow out a bit to get leg bands on them. There are 50 of them, all with green dye on their heads. I'm guessing they dye all the cockerels because I didn't order any pullets.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Others are curious about the weights too.

 

[gjensen]

Yeah, I just think it's annoying how many publications aimed at newb steaders tout this or that breed as 'perfect' or 'dual-purpose' and the almost never are. At least not how they are currently bred, and not for people who actually grow their own food instead of collecting animals. It's like the authors read the old pre-industrial farm pamphlets and copy text into current articles. I suppose that sells magazines, rather than practical pieces about how to choose the right animals for particular situations, not just going by pretty breed pictures.

I can't wait to get to the point where I can fine tune for length/onset of molt, start of lay, etc. A few decades ago I bred a few different species of exotic finches. It was fun and educational and rewarding to see how much improvement I could add to my lines. But ultimately extremely impractical. I made money, but it was just a hobby. With chickens I get the same challenges, make a little money, but mainly I love improving my household's food supply and budget. We can eat our 'mistakes'

It is frustrating, and down right misleading. Usually written by someone that does not know any better. The interest in poultry has increased suddenly, and many of the "experts" writing this stuff is new to them to.

Even reputable sites have misleading information. For example, I was reading the description of Catalanas by the ALBC. To me, having them, it comes across as being written by someone that has never raised them. In fact they have broke all of the rules that I had come "to know". I had one picture I my mind, and found an animal much different than my picture.
I spent a long time looking for the real thing, because they are as rare as any breed that we have. Many thought they were gone. I wanted to locate them because of the rarity, and the challenge appealed to me. If I would have went by their reputation, I would have never tried. Fortunately, I was pleasantly surprised.

Good dual purpose birds are the hardest to locate. To have them, is to take on a project. A project to get them where they should be. That is not as bad for someone that is committed to a particular breed. I think it is terrible for a breeds reputation. Many try a breed based on their historic reputation, only to find that they are not what they should be. They are turned off by the breed, and go elsewhere.

I would like to see more people pick one and try to get them where they should be.

I prefer to hear someone describe their birds honestly. Noting the good and the bad. Then someone can make a good decision about whether or not the birds are right for them.

One of the first things we learn in poultry is to set aside a breed's reputation and get familiar with individual strains. They are not all the same. Sometimes we find something we like in one, and something that we like in another. Crossing strains is not blasphemy like some would make it. It certainly is not always wise, but with good selection it can be a plus in the long run. Many of these breeds need to be "rebuilt", concerning production.

As far as selection it helps to get the criteria organized on paper to start. It is easy, because you do not do it all at once. Just seasonally throughout the year. There is no pressure, because they are your layers. You only get rid of your non producers along the way. If the information is recorded, it is easier to decide who is selected to produce the next generation.
I like having a generation of pullets and hens anyways. I have eggs while the hens are molting and get more winter eggs.

I like being able to eat my mistakes to.

 

[southernmomma]

Karen-- any literature ont he above question??

It would be great to have Karen join us on occasion.....I have some general genetic questions that I can't seem to formulate a good search term for and so am coming up empty handed. Let's tag her and see if she'll pop over

@3riverschick

M

 

[southernmomma]

Quote:
@seventreesfarm I feel your pain. I really do. Most of what gjensen has mentioned I have experienced first hand in my search for a good starting point. I have thought I found just what I was looking for a couple of times only to find out details of the breed that were deal breakers for me~ thankfully I am not rushed to purchase stock. Ultimately I wrote down what were needs and what were wants.....figured out what needed to be an existing trait of the strain and what I might be able to breed into it or breed towards over time. It's been.....interesting. I had no idea I'd want so much involvement in chickens of all things, lol. Part of me envies those that just buy the Cornish Cross twice a year to raise up and slaughter in all of 7 weeks but ultimately I am very excited to integrate poultry into our source of homegrown goodness and I think I'll enjoy the successes and failures of breeding.

The breeders that list their strains faults are the ones I would trust the most.

I can see from your post that you're just voicing a frustration and not actively seeking a certain breed but it resonated with me.

M