BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[bmvf]

I'm confused, what meat birds do you think would be too large for the SOP and end up not being what they are intended to be?

If you reread my post I said that a meat bird would be better growing faster than intended. My thoughts echo what gjensen posted.

The quote in Storey's guide is at the bottom of page 246 and is actually about breeding broilers. It says that "at maturity each bird selected as breeder should weigh within 1/2 pound of the standard weight for the breed". In the paragraph before it mentions that "those extremely fast growers tend to be the least healthy".

If any of you think that book is bad, leave a review. https://www.backyardchickens.com/pr...-chickens-3rd-edition/reviews?overallRating=4 It is the highest rated book with 17 reviews, 14- 5 star and 3- 4.5 star.

 

[Arielle]

I agree that his book is interesting, but I would put into the same category.

I think there is room for a better book to introduce new people. I like the ground Storey's book covers, and it stays away from philosophical ideals (mostly). It just gets some facts wrong. A lot of books do. It isn't that the entire book is necessarily bad.

I have learned to be skeptical about everything I read. Online or on paper. I consider it and decide for myself.

George-- I think this "sifting" comes about when a person is very knowledgeable about a subject and can pick out the small errors. lol It reminds me of reading a short article about horses in the TImes magazine or maybe it was Newsweek--- I can remember chuckling at the errors, a few small eroros in an otherwise very good indepth article that I was surprized to see in that genre of magazine. Regarding the book, it seems to be a well distributed primer in all the feed stores.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:

I'm confused, what meat birds do you think would be too large for the SOP and end up not being what they are intended to be?

If you reread my post I said that a meat bird would be better growing faster than intended. My thoughts echo what gjensen posted.

The quote in Storey's guide is at the bottom of page 246 and is actually about breeding broilers. It says that "at maturity each bird selected as breeder should weigh within 1/2 pound of the standard weight for the breed". In the paragraph before it mentions that "those extremely fast growers tend to be the least healthy".

If any of you think that book is bad, leave a review. https://www.backyardchickens.com/pr...-chickens-3rd-edition/reviews?overallRating=4 It is the highest rated book with 17 reviews, 14- 5 star and 3- 4.5 star.

THis book could use a few experienced poultry people to write a review. My concern is that the reviews presented so far are likely to be left by new to chicken members-- I don't see any reviews by folks that I regard as serious breeders likely because they are beyond reading this book. It is like my family handing me a basic how to care for horses book-- I sit and critique it. lol

 

[bnjrob]

If you reread my post I said that a meat bird would be better growing faster than intended. My thoughts echo what gjensen posted.

The quote in Storey's guide is at the bottom of page 246 and is actually about breeding broilers. It says that "at maturity each bird selected as breeder should weigh within 1/2 pound of the standard weight for the breed". In the paragraph before it mentions that "those extremely fast growers tend to be the least healthy".

If any of you think that book is bad, leave a review. https://www.backyardchickens.com/pr...-chickens-3rd-edition/reviews?overallRating=4 It is the highest rated book with 17 reviews, 14- 5 star and 3- 4.5 star.

I'm unsure which of gjensen's posts you are referring to but I guess I still don't see where you are coming from.

My copy of the Storey's guide is older and what is on your page 246 is not what is on mine - mine is about coops.

The thing about the term "broiler" is that is has more than one meaning. There is the meaning of a rooster that is butchered at an early age (not absolutely a specified age), that weighs a specific amount.

Then there is the term broiler that is used to basically indicate the young birds that are commercial meat mutts that are meant soley to be slaughtered. These birds ARE unhealthy birds. They grow exceedingly fast, too fast for their skeleton and organs to keep up. If they are not slaughtered early, they WILL die a horrible death, usually before they are a year old, because their bodies just can't accommodate becoming morbidly obese practically overnight.

I can't figure out why you think it would be better for a meat bird to grow faster than intended unless you are talking about it being better for your wallet.

I still think the wires are getting crossed between SOP breeding, SOP breeding while still making sure the bird has utility, and the commercial meat mutts that do not have an SOP because they do not require special breeding - because they can't physically live long enough to breed.

Using "broilers" does not require any breeding for production. It's already been done for you. And it has nothing to do with SOP breeding. And if you're using birds that are actual APA recognized "breeds", (Dorking, New Hampshire, etc), then you aren't going to want them to breed as fast as the meat mutts. If a person doesn't care about the quality of the meat and only about the time to slaughter - it's a waste to even mess with a true breed of bird that has an SOP - they should just get the commercial meat mutts that were bred specifically to die, and die young.

Maybe I'm just being dense with what you're trying to convey.

 

[bmvf]

Quote: I'm guessing the last sentence is what is happening. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. The original disagreement was about a question regarding culling a bird that grows too fast. To be honest, I think the question was answered but I can't remember because I'm having to defend a poor choice of words on my part.

In my limited experience on this site I agree with just about everything you've said, so I guess we're just not on the same page....literally

 

[bnjrob]

I'm guessing the last sentence is what is happening. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. The original disagreement was about a question regarding culling a bird that grows too fast. To be honest, I think the question was answered but I can't remember because I'm having to defend a poor choice of words on my part.

In my limited experience on this site I agree with just about everything you've said, so I guess we're just not on the same page....literally

LOL - that's ok. You know, when we sit and have these chats, it isn't just us that is trying to talk to each other. There are always tons of lurkers that may come in during the middle of a conversation and they end up missing good info because those of us actually involved in the conversation did not bother to try to get word choices and thoughts more fully explained. It can be a good thing when we don't immediately understand one another - gives everyone a chance to see more of the thought processes behind a comment and then it triggers that little bell in people's heads to think about something differently or take the conversation off on another related issue. Otherwise the conversation tends to just stall and nobody has anything to say for a while. Which usually prompts multiple posts of people putting up the little smiley face drinking a cup of coffee while they wait for someone to speak again.

 

[bnjrob]

George-- I think this "sifting" comes about when a person is very knowledgeable about a subject and can pick out the small errors. lol It reminds me of reading a short article about horses in the TImes magazine or maybe it was Newsweek--- I can remember chuckling at the errors, a few small eroros in an otherwise very good indepth article that I was surprized to see in that genre of magazine. Regarding the book, it seems to be a well distributed primer in all the feed stores.

True. When you don't know much about a subject, you don't know what is relevant and/or correct info. The Storey's guides are a good beginning point for people that need information as they start out. Just like the internet is. It's when people take only one thing and call it gospel that they can get into trouble - especially when their situation isn't exactly like what the book said, and then they don't know what to do.

And people tend to forget that most things are published without ever having an expert in the subject review it for accuracy. Heck, these days with the advent of so many e-books, people aren't even having their e-books edited for spelling and grammar, to heck with factual accuracy. Which drives me crazy since one would think that if you were writing a book, especially one where you are acting in an expert advisory capacity, you'd have enough common sense to at least hit the spell/grammar check button if you weren't going to have a live person edit it for you.

 

[LindaB220]

Getting back to chickens, I just wanted to let you know that my Basques and Coronation Sussex are being shipped out today. I have my incubator set up and waiting. One thought that I was having is that both have big breasts and grow big. What if I mixed them to have hybrid vigor. Keeping separate pens to keep purity. Thoughts?

 

[bnjrob]

Getting back to chickens, I just wanted to let you know that my Basques and Coronation Sussex are being shipped out today. I have my incubator set up and waiting. One thought that I was having is that both have big breasts and grow big. What if I mixed them to have hybrid vigor. Keeping separate pens to keep purity. Thoughts?

Do they need "hybrid vigor"? If something is wrong with the line of birds, crossing might get you that "vigor", but if not, is the cross breeding really worth it?

In dogs, there are breeds of dogs that are more susceptible to certain ailments and injuries because they were bred for certain traits without looking at the big picture of the negative consequences of the breeding selections. Which is why mutts usually don't have the congenital ailments at the same rate as their pure bred counterparts.

I can see where chickens could get into a bind and start having problems, depending on what a breeder was selecting for and how long they had been breeding a particular line of birds. Particularly if they were not looking at the big picture and focusing too much on one thing - after a while they could breed themselves into a corner. But overall, I'm not sure that there is a real need to crossbreed just for "hybrid vigor".

If a person was wanting a bird that lived longer, healthier, and more productively, it isn't that difficult to find birds that do fit that bill with no cross breeding involved. And having that strength, that hardiness - husbandry plays a big part in that. If you breed only the healthiest birds, the ones that are productive, and don't molly coddle them, they should be quite vigorous on their own without the need to cross breed.

 

[LindaB220]

Do they need "hybrid vigor"? If something is wrong with the line of birds, crossing might get you that "vigor", but if not, is the cross breeding really worth it?

In dogs, there are breeds of dogs that are more susceptible to certain ailments and injuries because they were bred for certain traits without looking at the big picture of the negative consequences of the breeding selections. Which is why mutts usually don't have the congenital ailments at the same rate as their pure bred counterparts.

I can see where chickens could get into a bind and start having problems, depending on what a breeder was selecting for and how long they had been breeding a particular line of birds. Particularly if they were not looking at the big picture and focusing too much on one thing - after a while they could breed themselves into a corner. But overall, I'm not sure that there is a real need to crossbreed just for "hybrid vigor".

If a person was wanting a bird that lived longer, healthier, and more productively, it isn't that difficult to find birds that do fit that bill with no cross breeding involved. And having that strength, that hardiness - husbandry plays a big part in that. If you breed only the healthiest birds, the ones that are productive, and don't molly coddle them, they should be quite vigorous on their own without the need to cross breed.

You are entirely correct. The Basques are friendly, fast growing and get big. They have 200-220 eggs a year. If it ain't broke..........