BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Beekissed]

bmvf, perhaps this link will be helpful. http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/1/egg-quality-handbook/30/watery-whites

This will be a little better than taking my word for it.

Hold the phone, here. That same link also lists causes of blood spots and it says "fights or disturbances". If it is being used as a credible source of information on watery whites, is it my understanding that it is also credible on blood spots? Wouldn't fights and disturbances fall under the realm of "stress"?

Just curious....

Also watched the other vid about the stigma and the blood vessels crossing it and it seems to me that something like that could vary according to what has happened to the bird during the development of that ova. What the film doesn't cover is something called collateral circulation. This is something that can develop if normal patterns of vessels are damaged in any way and can result in new vessels being formed around the damaged area. This even happens in the heart vessels after mild cardiac infarctions or even when those arteries become slowly blocked.

in an area of tissue or an organ that blood can reach by more than one pathway. This is often a result of anastamoses, branches formed between adjacent blood vessels. Collateral circulation can be established in the venous system (between veins) or in the arterial system (between arteries). It may arise from pathological conditions such as congestion or ischaemia.

Just for kicks and giggles, let's imagine a chicken has had trauma or even the stress of illness that could cause damage in the form of a clot to these fine vessels around the egg in the early stages and the vessels form collateral circulation that crosses that stigma, couldn't this cause a blood spot?

 

[bmvf]

Do you not have permanent housing? All of our birds are housed in large mobile pens, but some are dedicated pullet and cockerel grow out pens. So there may not be birds in those coops all the time, but they are always there for when it comes time to separate the sexes.

For winter I moved the NH's from my chicken tractor to a small shed when it got cold. The Del's I got in November were ready to move from the brooder to my main chicken coop in late December. I need to make another chicken tractor but could use two more I guess. I need some chicken wire. It would be nice to have individual cages for a rooster or two when I need a place to go with one.

I liked having chickens running around the farm last year but it got to be a nuisance when they dug holes in the flower beds, pooped on the walks, and moved their eggs to different spots each week. They cleaned up the place from bugs and maybe even small mice. Once the dog left his dead groundhog lay in the yard and it took me a few days to move it. When I did the chickens came running for some maggots! I liked having them scratch through bedding looking for something to eat. They would aerate and dry out the bedding. It was also funny to watch them clear the milk dish of cats. One was a hatchery Delaware we called Delly. She came up, head bobbing and eyed the milk. The cats quietly lapping milk saw her and kept an eye on her. She walked up to them and picked at their ears till they left. She cleared the bowl of hungry cats and drank her fill!

 

[Heron's Nest Farm]

For winter I moved the NH's from my chicken tractor to a small shed when it got cold. The Del's I got in November were ready to move from the brooder to my main chicken coop in late December. I need to make another chicken tractor but could use two more I guess. I need some chicken wire. It would be nice to have individual cages for a rooster or two when I need a place to go with one.

I liked having chickens running around the farm last year but it got to be a nuisance when they dug holes in the flower beds, pooped on the walks, and moved their eggs to different spots each week. They cleaned up the place from bugs and maybe even small mice. Once the dog left his dead groundhog lay in the yard and it took me a few days to move it. When I did the chickens came running for some maggots! I liked having them scratch through bedding looking for something to eat. They would aerate and dry out the bedding. It was also funny to watch them clear the milk dish of cats. One was a hatchery Delaware we called Delly. She came up, head bobbing and eyed the milk. The cats quietly lapping milk saw her and kept an eye on her. She walked up to them and picked at their ears till they left. She cleared the bowl of hungry cats and drank her fill!

I had to laugh. The romance of totally free range died for me too--for the same reasons. The worst was when they began grabbing food from the children's hands or guests having a drink with me on the terrace! I would finish weeding and spreading the mulch and they would destroy it immediately. We would slip on poop going up the steps.
,
The final blow cam when we were growing broccoli, patiently waiting for the flower heads to be just right. My daughter had inspected them in the morning and we were sure that evening we would eat our broccoli. We were heading to gymnastics when I saw something out of the corner of my eye. It was a blur of frenzied jumping chickens around the broccoli. By the time we ran screaming there were only stubs.

I have never gone without nets since.

 

[Beekissed]

We still love the "romance", or as I call it, the natural diet and environment of a chicken, and so we place nets around things instead of the chickens. If they are really left to free range from a young age they won't even think of approaching a human for food in one's hand. My flock stays as far from humans as they possibly can unless it's just me by myself and even then I couldn't get my hands on one out in the open. The porches have netting, the garden has netting and even the landscaping has netting placed over the mulch so that nothing gets scratched up. It works! And it's easier to fence them out and let them fend for themselves all day than it is to try and tend their habitat if penned, keeping them penned, dealing with the mess and stink of penned chickens, etc.

 

[gjensen]

Hold the phone, here. That same link also lists causes of blood spots and it says "fights or disturbances". If it is being used as a credible source of information on watery whites, is it my understanding that it is also credible on blood spots? Wouldn't fights and disturbances fall under the realm of "stress"?

Just curious....

Also watched the other vid about the stigma and the blood vessels crossing it and it seems to me that something like that could vary according to what has happened to the bird during the development of that ova. What the film doesn't cover is something called collateral circulation. This is something that can develop if normal patterns of vessels are damaged in any way and can result in new vessels being formed around the damaged area. This even happens in the heart vessels after mild cardiac infarctions or even when those arteries become slowly blocked.


Just for kicks and giggles, let's imagine a chicken has had trauma or even the stress of illness that could cause damage in the form of a clot to these fine vessels around the egg in the early stages and the vessels form collateral circulation that crosses that stigma, couldn't this cause a blood spot?

I would attribute that to physical trauma. Picture a layer house as packed as they are in cages and sounding a sudden and loud noise outside or in the building. The darned things would be bouncing off of the walls. I would say that the noise did not cause the blood spots, but the bouncing around from the panic. If that is what bnjrob was calling stress, stress that causes a panic to the point of bouncing all over the place, then I would agree. I mentioned physical trauma but it was not followed up on. If you noticed, they did not use the word stress.

I would not dispute that any number of illnesses or injuries could cause blood spots. Pure stress as in the stress that is from moving them from one cage to another, or yard to another. To new birds that are stressed because they are put in with new birds, or sudden changes in temperature. No. Certainly not.

Illnesses and trauma are not the definition of stress we were discussing. If that is what we are turning it into, then we are changing the topic altogether.

 

[Heron's Nest Farm]

And I am just going to say it:

There is no point to this ARGUMENT. And that is what it is. It is uncomfortable and is making visiting my favorite thread NOT FUN.

I cannot see why you would need to belabor these points. Please play nice and let's get back to being enjoyable.

Take the presented theories and file them into your breeding program as you see fit.

 

[Heron's Nest Farm]

We still love the "romance", or as I call it, the natural diet and environment of a chicken, and so we place nets around things instead of the chickens. If they are really left to free range from a young age they won't even think of approaching a human for food in one's hand. My flock stays as far from humans as they possibly can unless it's just me by myself and even then I couldn't get my hands on one out in the open. The porches have netting, the garden has netting and even the landscaping has netting placed over the mulch so that nothing gets scratched up. It works! And it's easier to fence them out and let them fend for themselves all day than it is to try and tend their habitat if penned, keeping them penned, dealing with the mess and stink of penned chickens, etc.

I have mobile nets. My chickens have access to fresh ground regularly.

 

[Beekissed]

And I am just going to say it:

There is no point to this ARGUMENT. And that is what it is. It is uncomfortable and is making visiting my favorite thread NOT FUN.

I cannot see why you would need to belabor these points. Please play nice and let's get back to being enjoyable.

Take the presented theories and file them into your breeding program as you see fit.

And I am just going to say it: What you perceive as an argument is just mental gymnastics for these two individuals, as it is for me. I have nothing but the deepest respect for gjensen and bnjrob and I can tell they have similar feelings towards each other. You've not been here very long but we have and this is the way we learn from one another, challenge one another to continue learning and how we explore new theories and knowledge.

You may not be having FUN, but maybe they and we are. There have been no harsh words or disrespect in these posts and as such, they should offer no discomfort for other people reading the posts. If you are feeling discomfort it could be just in your perception of what you are reading.

Sometimes these types of discussions just run their course and much is learned on both sides. If you have no interest in the topic you can change the subject or read around these posts, much like we do if we don't want to digest the information from other posts. And that's often the way it's done on these more involved and introspective threads....sometimes things get deeper than chit chat about chickens.

 

[Heron's Nest Farm]

.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

And I am just going to say it: What you perceive as an argument is just mental gymnastics for these two individuals, as it is for me. I have nothing but the deepest respect for gjensen and bnjrob and I can tell they have similar feelings towards each other. You've not been here very long but we have and this is the way we learn from one another, challenge one another to continue learning and how we explore new theories and knowledge.

You may not be having FUN, but maybe they and we are. There have been no harsh words or disrespect in these posts and as such, they should offer no discomfort for other people reading the posts. If you are feeling discomfort it could be just in your perception of what you are reading.

Sometimes these types of discussions just run their course and much is learned on both sides. If you have no interest in the topic you can change the subject or read around these posts, much like we do if we don't want to digest the information from other posts. And that's often the way it's done on these more involved and introspective threads....sometimes things get deeper than chit chat about chickens.

Ditto.