BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I agree with the separation of sexes once they can be identified. It is a very basic management concept, but an important one in my opinion. That is if good steady growth rates are a goal.

Some of it is competition around the feeders. More of it is competition in general. There is also a lot of chasing pullets, and pullets being chased. The energy required from the additional stressors is high. More feed is devoted to management rather than growth. Cockerels that have limited exercise, grow faster.

There is less competition among cockerels when they cannot see pullets or hens. They can also be kept together longer when the sight lines have been interrupted.

On the other side, I believe in my cocks being able to see hens and pullets all of the time, even if separated for a time.

There are a number of management techniques that aid good early growth. Except when compared to neglected birds, these do not influence final size. Genetics dictates final size, unless a bird has been neglected and the growth is stunted.

In other words, the bird will get to the same adult size on 20% cp, and 24% cp. Only that one will get to a point faster than the other. The bird on 20% does catch up in time. At what point that occurs depends on the genetics of the birds.

 

[Beekissed]

We saw improvement in size with the first group we separated by gender. Couldn't be more pleased. It's a pain in the butt to have so many separate pens for males/females, but it's been worth it for us.


Neither. They run off all the food they eat when there are horny cockerels chasing pullets and each other all over the place - the pullets are running from the cockerels, and the alpha cockerels are chasing not only pullets, but chasing other cockerels to keep the subordinate cockerels away from the pullets. Once they are separated, there is no longer a reason for all the chasing to occur, so more of what they eat goes to build their body up, rather than simply to fuel their constant flight from all the chasing.

I'm wondering, though, if what you are seeing is true size or merely because they are using less energy, so packing on more fat. I've been wondering this for some time now when I see other young birds of the breed I have pictured on the appropriate thread and those birds look much bigger than mine at the same age...but when seen as adults, they are all the same size in the end. The main difference being mine free range from 2 wks of age and get a daily ration only and those other birds are living a penned existence with continuous feeders.

Then I see this rooster I got from Mr. Weaver, which fluctuates in visual size according to when he is penned and fed as opposed to when he ranges. His actual "size" doesn't change...he's still as tall and as wide as ever, but when penned, all the angles fill in more as his muscles relax and lose tonicity and he packs on more fat. Sort of like when a ripped weight lifter stops lifting for an extended period of time....he looks bigger somehow but that's due to softer muscle tissue and more adipose layer on top of them, while in reality his weight while ripped is a true reflection of his potential because muscle weighs more than fat.

I'd venture to say one could visualize a bird's true shape and size when he is ripped down to hard, toned muscle when doing more exercise, than they could if they are trying to see those lines through softer tissue. While the fuller looking silhouette may look like the bird is larger, in truth he is really only as large as he is when he is toned to the max.

 

[bnjrob]

I'm wondering, though, if what you are seeing is true size or merely because they are using less energy, so packing on more fat. I've been wondering this for some time now when I see other young birds of the breed I have pictured on the appropriate thread and those birds look much bigger than mine at the same age...but when seen as adults, they are all the same size in the end. The main difference being mine free range from 2 wks of age and get a daily ration only and those other birds are living a penned existence with continuous feeders.

Then I see this rooster I got from Mr. Weaver, which fluctuates in visual size according to when he is penned and fed as opposed to when he ranges. His actual "size" doesn't change...he's still as tall and as wide as ever, but when penned, all the angles fill in more as his muscles relax and lose tonicity and he packs on more fat. Sort of like when a ripped weight lifter stops lifting for an extended period of time....he looks bigger somehow but that's due to softer muscle tissue and more adipose layer on top of them, while in reality his weight while ripped is a true reflection of his potential because muscle weighs more than fat.

I'd venture to say one could visualize a bird's true shape and size when he is ripped down to hard, toned muscle when doing more exercise, than they could if they are trying to see those lines through softer tissue. While the fuller looking silhouette may look like the bird is larger, in truth he is really only as large as he is when he is toned to the max.

With our birds, it is an actual size increase - actual height and width in addition to weight, not a fat accumulation. We saw this in the first bunch we separated and compared them to their parents and they were larger than their parents. Our birds turn out quite lean, even the ones that don't free range daily. The only ones that have gotten much fat on them have been birds that were kept in much smaller quarters than usual and fed a goodly amount of corn prior to butchering. We do hands-on exams and weights, particularly when we are choosing breeders, and also compare their carcasses to what we saw when we examined them prior to butchering.

 

[Beer can]

I have a Blue Jersey Husnt, heritage breed so I was told. He came from Induana ( I think) Maria's Giants.

I have him with some of my Naked Neck hens. I feel that the NN's especially the hens need a boost in the weight department.

I haven't butchered any Giants though so I can't say how big boned they are. All I know is that they were bred to replace the Thanksgiving family turkey.

This guy is big. Haven't weighed him but a good guess us about 15-16 pounds.

Maria's Giants are from the original Golda Miller line. If I wanted blues or blacks I had planned on going with hers, but she's$$, and her website is WHOOA, don't want to say 'nuts', we can do say sell whatever in our great country, some giant breeders don't like the fact she is selling for a premium, I say more power to her if they're buying! . IMHO worth it, why buy substandard? But I decided I wanted whites, Maria didn't go with the whites. SandHill got Golda Millers whites, but they don't breed for SOP (I don't care, I just want size!) They breed for 'genetic diversity', BUT they say their line is a closed flock since they acquired them.... HUH? And "many won't meet APA standards, but are hardy and productive...." They're little now, can't wait to see what I end up with....

 

[Beekissed]

With our birds, it is an actual size increase - actual height and width in addition to weight, not a fat accumulation. We saw this in the first bunch we separated and compared them to their parents and they were larger than their parents. Our birds turn out quite lean, even the ones that don't free range daily. The only ones that have gotten much fat on them have been birds that were kept in much smaller quarters than usual and fed a goodly amount of corn prior to butchering. We do hands-on exams and weights, particularly when we are choosing breeders, and also compare their carcasses to what we saw when we examined them prior to butchering.

They turned out larger than the parent birds simply by separating the sexes? Simply by getting less exercise they grew larger than the parent genetics? NOW I'm interested and would love to know how and why that works.

If you get get superior size on the genetics of these birds by doing this move, I'm all in.

 

[Beer can]

I'm game. Going to try it. Don't care much for the pullets being 'overworked' anyways...

 

[Dead Rabbit]

I will weigh in here, on a couple of subjects

It's common practice for the game fowl breeders of old to separate the stags from the pullets at a very young age. They would send stags to a whole separate yard away from the pullets. Out of sight (and hearing) out of mind. This way the stags would free range longer and could be allowed to run together up to 12 months of age give or take instead of the typical 4-6 months of age before they turned fight crazy. Then the separate penning was a necessity

But the end result was same sized fowl. Genetics determine the size. Longer free ranging gave the fowl longer leaner muscle mass. Hence a much better condition with little to no body fat because of constant exercise.
Caponing will SEEM to create a larger eating birds. Just like steering a bull, or castrating a boar hog. Any time you castrate any male the end result is a larger being BUT it's not TRULY larger. It's actually just a different build from a muscle tissue standpoint. Removing the testosterone source causes softer muscle tissue. Causes all growth to go towards the actual frame and meat. So it SEEMS to cause a larger being. Whereas in reality it's all the same just the growth energy is directed in different areas. If allowed to grow to full maturity the animal that is still intact will be just as large and many times much heavier because of pure muscle mass. But when it comes to animal husbandry based on consumption, it's all about time. Time and feed consumption ratio means money. So the young castrated beings are quicker to market size and weight.
Plus taking the main motivating force in life from a male, I.e. Testosterone, will cause a whole nother outlook on life. Nothing else truly matters but eating and sleeping. Which in itself causes quicker growth. These reasons are why steered cattle, barrow pigs, and capon are more desireable and sell for a higher price than even their female counterparts

 

[Dead Rabbit]

Jersey giant purchased from a member at this site. Said to come from Maria hall lines.

13 lbs 12 months

15 months

Just shy of 20 lbs at 18 months. I sold him immediately after these photos taken so I don't know what size he grew to. There was still nothing but frame still on him except for his drumsticks. They would rival any turkey. When I picked him up off the roost I almost dropped him. Not expecting the weight. Pictures are not true representation of the sheer mass and beauty of this bird.

 

[draye]

Maria's Giants are from the original Golda Miller line. If I wanted blues or blacks I had planned on going with hers, but she's$$, and her website is WHOOA, don't want to say 'nuts', we can do say sell whatever in our great country, some giant breeders don't like the fact she is selling for a premium, I say more power to her if they're buying! . IMHO worth it, why buy substandard? But I decided I wanted whites, Maria didn't go with the whites. SandHill got Golda Millers whites, but they don't breed for SOP (I don't care, I just want size!) They breed for 'genetic diversity', BUT they say their line is a closed flock since they acquired them.... HUH? And "many won't meet APA standards, but are hardy and productive...." They're little now, can't wait to see what I end up with....

I'll agree, way over priced. I didn't get mine directly from her. I got mine for a song and dance from a person who went there to Marisa place, and picked them up. She needed to get rid if them and asked me to take them on.

As much as I loved those big chickens I too had to sell them off. This one just came back to me, he's one if the original birds that I got in the purchase.

@Beer can
I too wanted the Whites, but ran into this deal. I had the Giants from hatcheries years ago and they never grew as big as these did.
I have heard that Sand Hills would but I don't have that kind of patience to wait for them to decide when they want to send them. I get my stuff ready and I want them when I want them.
I really hope they turn out for you and keep us up to date in how they turn out.

 

[bnjrob]

They turned out larger than the parent birds simply by separating the sexes? Simply by getting less exercise they grew larger than the parent genetics? NOW I'm interested and would love to know how and why that works.

If you get get superior size on the genetics of these birds by doing this move, I'm all in.

It sounds weird, but they did get larger than their parents. We really weren't expecting it but figured we would try it after a number of people told us that it helped. They didn't get a lot larger than their parents, but it was enough to be noticeable.