BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...on-standard-bred-large-fowl/770#post_15967960

This is a link to the page where I posted photos of the Columbian pullets with traits I select for when choosing breeder pullets. This has been a multi year journey working towards the SOP.

Please cross post these to the Heritage Phase II thread.

 

[TNBielefelder]

The goal is to get them laying and the egg size up before the days get too short.

If your birds take 20 weeks until point of lay, then hatch them at such and such a time. If 24 wks at such and such a time. If they mature especially fast, you do not want to hatch them too early. Then they are vulnerable for a first winter molt.

We want our pullets laying through the winter. Our three and four year old breeding hens are not going to lay well through the winter. Our pullets are our winter layers.

Think of it as a seasonal rhythm. We have our ideal hatching times. We should take the above in consideration, and our climate is a consideration. When we want our cockerels ready etc. Here I try to beat the heat without hatching to early. You will find what is best for you. Then you will add a breed, or change breeds, and figure it out again.

excellent practical points made here. Can you post a brief summary of when you hatch and why?

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

The goal is to get them laying and the egg size up before the days get too short.

If your birds take 20 weeks until point of lay, then hatch them at such and such a time. If 24 wks at such and such a time. If they mature especially fast, you do not want to hatch them too early. Then they are vulnerable for a first winter molt.

We want our pullets laying through the winter. Our three and four year old breeding hens are not going to lay well through the winter. Our pullets are our winter layers.

Think of it as a seasonal rhythm. We have our ideal hatching times. We should take the above in consideration, and our climate is a consideration. When we want our cockerels ready etc. Here I try to beat the heat without hatching to early. You will find what is best for you. Then you will add a breed, or change breeds, and figure it out again.

THANK YOU - I KNEW there was something about the first moult in there somewhere. I have the heat issue as well that I have to work around, which is why fall works well otherwise. With the understanding that every chicken/breed is different about winter laying, what do you consider as "too short" for day length (as a starting point/estimate)? (Then I could do the math based on my latitude/longitude...)

BTW, Paula DID lay first thing in the morning yesterday after I posted my question. After quarantine and weeks of gazing longingly at each other, the girls finally met their new boyfriend, Dumbledore, yesterday evening, and spent a couple hours (relatively gently) putting him in his place before bed time - poor fella. So I'm not sure whether she'll lay today or not, with the upheaval/new addition to the flock. I have found all of the laying discussion and answers to my egg questions really helpful. I have enough chickens that I will have more eggs than I personally need even if they lay poorly (George's comment about being "buried in eggs' comes to mind), but in my breeding decisions, I don't want to inadvertently select for poor laying just because I'm not paying attention.

- Ant Farm

 

[gjensen]

THANK YOU - I KNEW there was something about the first moult in there somewhere. I have the heat issue as well that I have to work around, which is why fall works well otherwise. With the understanding that every chicken/breed is different about winter laying, what do you consider as "too short" for day length (as a starting point/estimate)? (Then I could do the math based on my latitude/longitude...)

BTW, Paula DID lay first thing in the morning yesterday after I posted my question. After quarantine and weeks of gazing longingly at each other, the girls finally met their new boyfriend, Dumbledore, yesterday evening, and spent a couple hours (relatively gently) putting him in his place before bed time - poor fella. So I'm not sure whether she'll lay today or not, with the upheaval/new addition to the flock. I have found all of the laying discussion and answers to my egg questions really helpful. I have enough chickens that I will have more eggs than I personally need even if they lay poorly (George's comment about being "buried in eggs' comes to mind), but in my breeding decisions, I don't want to inadvertently select for poor laying just because I'm not paying attention.

- Ant Farm

I cannot make any specific recommendations. What you do is do it when you want to. That is how you figure out if that is what you want ot not. Some successfully hatch all year round. Some like me, like more of a seasonal rhythm. I hatch later than most show folks, but some here said that I hatch too early. Only you can make sense of it. All I can do is share experiences, insights, and a perspective. Listen to what I say, but do not do as I say. I listen to everyone, but I will do what I decide to do.

ETA: Consider the day length that they need to lay reliably. You want the egg size up for hatching. I emphasize hens, but it can be necessary to hatch from some pullets. The chicks from smaller eggs hatch smaller. They do catch up, but it is worth considering. Do the math, and back track. That will help give you a starting point.

 

[DesertChic]

There is nothing wrong with coming to a different conclusion. It is when we arrogantly dismiss what others say, that have more experience, and we went to them to begin with. .. LOL. They never have to say anything. I cannot say how many pms I get with a question, and then they do not like the answer. Even respond with rudeness. That is what we do. We look to them for help, and then we walk away criticizing the help they offered. That is reflective of a serious character flaw. Typical these days. I disagree with people all of the time, and I am not shy about discussing it with them.

Look at this way. We have done everything but name this man, in public, to the entire world. And he has been publicly criticized for trying to help. That is what I publicly rebuked, or the attitude that leads to it.

We do not think about what we do. We do not leave our own orbit so we only react to how something makes us feel. It is all about us.

When we discuss things here, we are all on equal footing. We bat around thoughts and ideas. We agree and disagree. For a poultry judge, he is in a unique position. People will go to him with questions, and because he or she is not God, they will provide less than perfect answers. People will then walk away offended, and question the character of that imperfect judge. What sense does that make? It would be better if the poultry judge never answered a question at all. Then he will not share thoughts for others to be bothered by.

Now Desertchic, you have a very genuine spirit. Do not take this post as criticism. This is commenting to people in general. This is certainly not questioning your intentions. Please do not take it that way.

I take absolutely no offense to anything you said and would concede that you have an extremely valid point about people asking for advice from the more experienced and then responding....inappropriately??...to that advice. My only retort in this particular scenario would be that while this individual about whom I was discussing is extremely knowledgeable about poultry keeping, judging, etc., he was in fact NOT knowledgeable about capons. By his own admission he'd never created a capon, and I don't think he's ever consumed one either, and therefore could not speak from experience or as a voice of wisdom on the subject. He merely dismissed the idea as a waste of time. I think to @Kassaundra 's point, a person in such a position of authority who has no experience on a topic should perhaps consider being restrained and conservative about advising one way or another. I'm a pretty strong-willed, free-thinking individual and was in no way deterred from my pursuit by his advice, but there are plenty of people who under such influence may avoid pursuing an expansion of their knowledge or a rediscovery of some of the "old ways" simply because an "expert" told them not to waste their time. Respect goes both ways, and unfortunately (or not) being in a position of authority means you must be MORE careful about what you say and advise, not less. Given how attentive you are to the wording in your own posts, I think you understand this.

Right now I very much regret having referenced this person at all, for as you pointed out, I have inadvertently led to the villification of a man I truly do respect, even if I disagree with him on this particular point. I had thought that by remaining ambiguous about his identity my complaint about him would be innocuous, but that may have been an incorrect assumption on my part. My own personal hope to learn this process and both its benefits and pitfalls, and share my experience on the matter with this individual. I believe that we all have something to learn from and teach to one another irrespective of age, gender, etc., and I'd like to show him a side of poultry keeping that he has never himself really considered. After all, he's already taught me quite a bit. I'd like to return the favor.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I cannot make any specific recommendations. What you do is do it when you want to. That is how you figure out if that is what you want ot not. Some successfully hatch all year round. Some like me, like more of a seasonal rhythm. I hatch later than most show folks, but some here said that I hatch too early. Only you can make sense of it. All I can do is share experiences, insights, and a perspective. Listen to what I say, but do not do as I say. I listen to everyone, but I will do what I decide to do.

I guess I was just asking specifically about day length based on your experience. I realize I will have to observe on my own over the years as I gain experience, but was wondering if there were any observations to share. I think day length is 11 hours right now here...

(I have no problem at all asking for advice, weighing it, and either following it or not based on my own needs.

)

- Ant Farm

 

[DesertChic]

I guess I was just asking specifically about day length based on your experience. I realize I will have to observe on my own over the years as I gain experience, but was wondering if there were any observations to share. I think day length is 11 hours right now here...

(I have no problem at all asking for advice, weighing it, and either following it or not based on my own needs.

)

- Ant Farm

I had similar questions to what you've been inquiring about....and still do for that matter. Right now I've got my "layer flock" that reached POL this past April, my NN flock that reached POL in June, my Bielefelder flock (including some White Rocks) that partially reached POL in August, my Dorking-mix flock that is now at POL, and my Frizzled and Smooth Easter Egger flock that could reach POL anytime between now and the end of the year.

I track the laying habits of each breed, flock and individual bird....all so I can torment myself with crunching statistics on one of those long nights when my insomnia kicks in.

 

[gjensen]

excellent practical points made here. Can you post a brief summary of when you hatch and why?

My Catalanas reach point of lay around 20 wks. I want them a couple weeks later, but they can be a couple weeks earlier. If I hatch them in March, they will reach point of lay in August. That is not bad. The first year I had them, I hatched in January. They all molted (the earliest ones) in their first winter.
I want to beat the heat. I like my cockerels to reach 75% of their growth by the time our most brutal heat gets here. They grow a lot slower in the extreme heat. July is very hot here, and it often is from mid June. As early as May, but I cannot control the weather. So, I want them hatched by March 1st. The cockerels are 16wks old by July 1st, and the pullets are laying by August 1st. The pullets have been laying 8wks by Oct 1st. I do wish the pullets were laying two weeks later.
I liked my NHs hatching a few weeks earlier for similar reasons.

This is a general description. I am not precise. March is my biggest hatching month though. March is a good time for me. I do not like hatching much earlier, but I will probably do that this coming season. I need to hatch from three males, and from the same hens. That means I will start early. Like I said, I like to beat the heat.

 

[gjensen]

I guess I was just asking specifically about day length based on your experience. I realize I will have to observe on my own over the years as I gain experience, but was wondering if there were any observations to share. I think day length is 11 hours right now here...

(I have no problem at all asking for advice, weighing it, and either following it or not based on my own needs.

)

- Ant Farm

The problem is that some of that depends on your birds. Whether they are cycling in or out, so are you speaking of fall or spring? They tend to lay better in lower light cycling in than cycling out. A pullet does better coming into lay, than a hen going out of lay (in lower light). 14hrs is a good reference for full lay. Did you notice when your hens started to molt? Use molting hens as a reference. Ideally, your pullets are laying before your hens quit.

 

[gjensen]

I take absolutely no offense to anything you said and would concede that you have an extremely valid point about people asking for advice from the more experienced and then responding....inappropriately??...to that advice. My only retort in this particular scenario would be that while this individual about whom I was discussing is extremely knowledgeable about poultry keeping, judging, etc., he was in fact NOT knowledgeable about capons. By his own admission he'd never created a capon, and I don't think he's ever consumed one either, and therefore could not speak from experience or as a voice of wisdom on the subject. He merely dismissed the idea as a waste of time. I think to @Kassaundra 's point, a person in such a position of authority who has no experience on a topic should perhaps consider being restrained and conservative about advising one way or another. I'm a pretty strong-willed, free-thinking individual and was in no way deterred from my pursuit by his advice, but there are plenty of people who under such influence may avoid pursuing an expansion of their knowledge or a rediscovery of some of the "old ways" simply because an "expert" told them not to waste their time. Respect goes both ways, and unfortunately (or not) being in a position of authority means you must be MORE careful about what you say and advise, not less. Given how attentive you are to the wording in your own posts, I think you understand this.

Right now I very much regret having referenced this person at all, for as you pointed out, I have inadvertently led to the villification of a man I truly do respect, even if I disagree with him on this particular point. I had thought that by remaining ambiguous about his identity my complaint about him would be innocuous, but that may have been an incorrect assumption on my part. My own personal hope to learn this process and both its benefits and pitfalls, and share my experience on the matter with this individual. I believe that we all have something to learn from and teach to one another irrespective of age, gender, etc., and I'd like to show him a side of poultry keeping that he has never himself really considered. After all, he's already taught me quite a bit. I'd like to return the favor.

If you go back through other threads here, you will find that I did not mind debating the "old timers". If I thought it was wrong, I said so. I am that way in person, but I maintain communicating respect. That is harder on here, because we do not see facial expressions, or give pats on the back. I have disagreed and expressed dislike of particular points with friends in private. Not publicly. I hope not.

When I go to someone with questions, it is a different point. I am not disagreeing. I am going to shut up and listen, and I will consider it then and after. I do not want to complain about what I have been freely given.

I regret that this conversation has went this far. I am sorry. But, please try to understand the tone that I was originally responding to. Initially, I tried to remind us that we should listen to such. Whether we like it or not.