BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[cyborg]

I'd like to tap the experienced folks here for advice. I have my 10 New Hampshires and 13 Naked Necks on Purina Flock Raiser (20% protein), plus what they get in their tractor moved daily (no free ranging quite yet). They are just under 9 weeks old. Goals for these birds: All New Hampshires will go to freezer, as will some of the Naked Necks. Some of the Naked Necks will be kept as the origin of a meat flock (the remaining also to ultimately go to freezer camp). All are fed the same feed (coop for the NN keepers not finished yet). 

Is it "ok" to keep them on the 20% protein feed (Flock Raiser), which is working well, and is indicated "for meat birds" per package, or would it be prudent to find a way to separate out some of my NN pullets out and begin to feed them a grower ration (decreased protein). Note that I am not focused on egg production for these birds specifically (I'll have plenty as it is) - I just want to ensure their good and proper growth as future breeders. 

I've got books galore, but am also interested from y'all's experience in the sense of "breeding for production". Looking for opinions - share 'em if you got 'em!

- Ant Farm

(To clarify: It is not that egg production isn't important, per se, it's that I personally will have tons of eggs, and that the primary focus for these birds will be meat production - so choices that may affect an individual pullet's future productivity egg-wise, independent of genetics, are less important that making sure I don't impair their breeding ability - if they are different.)

I mix a bag of 16% layer feed with a bag of 20% starter feed, after 10 to 12 weeks. The chicks get straight starter feed.

 

[DesertChic]

I'd like to tap the experienced folks here for advice. I have my 10 New Hampshires and 13 Naked Necks on Purina Flock Raiser (20% protein), plus what they get in their tractor moved daily (no free ranging quite yet). They are just under 9 weeks old. Goals for these birds: All New Hampshires will go to freezer, as will some of the Naked Necks. Some of the Naked Necks will be kept as the origin of a meat flock (the remaining also to ultimately go to freezer camp). All are fed the same feed (coop for the NN keepers not finished yet).

Is it "ok" to keep them on the 20% protein feed (Flock Raiser), which is working well, and is indicated "for meat birds" per package, or would it be prudent to find a way to separate out some of my NN pullets out and begin to feed them a grower ration (decreased protein). Note that I am not focused on egg production for these birds specifically (I'll have plenty as it is) - I just want to ensure their good and proper growth as future breeders.

I've got books galore, but am also interested from y'all's experience in the sense of "breeding for production". Looking for opinions - share 'em if you got 'em!

- Ant Farm

(To clarify: It is not that egg production isn't important, per se, it's that I personally will have tons of eggs, and that the primary focus for these birds will be meat production - so choices that may affect an individual pullet's future productivity egg-wise, independent of genetics, are less important that making sure I don't impair their breeding ability - if they are different.)

I don't have nearly as much experience as others on here, but I've had really good results from keeping them on higher protein for longer. Once their rate of growth slows substantially, which I've found can vary significantly between breeds, I then cut back on their protein (and my expense). With my first NN group, growth slowed substantially right around 9 weeks of age. I left them on the higher protein feed for a couple more weeks to finish off the bag, but the rate continued to drop, so I dropped the protein down from 24% to 18%. Once I'd butchered my culls, I switched the flock to a standard 16% with free access to calcium to focus on the eggs, and then upped the protein a couple weeks before I began the breeding program.

 

[varidgerunner]

Starting out, 24% feed is good for the first week. Crickets are high protein, and if a hen had her choice she would catch crickets for her chicks and teach them to dust in starter feed. Once they get a little older I do know that too much protein can be bad for some of the bigger birds, growing too fast can be bad for bones and joints. This would be a problem impacting longevity more than it would be an issue with birds grown for meat.

 

[Our Roost]

Do you really want my opinion or do you want me to agree that what your doing is okay? I think medicated chick starter and starter grower products are esential to get your birds growing and healthy first before you try to bulk them up. The protein level is actually higher than you might think. I believe the product we use on our chicks and juveniles is 18% up until they are about 13 weeks old and coop ready. At that point, I have my meat birds on a slightly different diet than my egg layers. Tinkering with protein and supplements is pretty crucial to how your chickens evolve and thrive.
Excessive high levels of 20% protein or greater "may" cause bleeding if fed to them too early on and possibly long term. Both feed reps from Purina and Nutrogena from my local feed store agree on this. There are time points throughout the yearly cycle that chickens need added protein which can benefit not only their health but also maintain growth and weight. Dont be led down the path that more is greater!
Keep in mind that chickens aren't turkeys and will never be! The quality of what you bring to the table is more important. It is important you recognize the standard norm weight of your breed and what size you can expect that bird to reach at full maturity. Strive to reach the max weight within that breed and keep them healthy and tasty! Or, make them great egg layers if that is your goal. They are what you feed them.

 

[TNBielefelder]

Do you really want my opinion or do you want me to agree that what your doing is okay? I think medicated chick starter and starter grower products are esential to get your birds growing and healthy first before you try to bulk them up. The protein level is actually higher than you might think. I believe the product we use on our chicks and juveniles is 18% up until they are about 13 weeks old and coop ready. At that point, I have my meat birds on a slightly different diet than my egg layers. Tinkering with protein and supplements is pretty crucial to how your chickens evolve and thrive.
Excessive high levels of 20% protein or greater "may" cause bleeding if fed to them too early on and possibly long term. Both feed reps from Purina and Nutrogena from my local feed store agree on this. There are time points throughout the yearly cycle that chickens need added protein which can benefit not only their health but also maintain growth and weight. Dont be led down the path that more is greater!
Keep in mind that chickens aren't turkeys and will never be! The quality of what you bring to the table is more important. It is important you recognize the standard norm weight of your breed and what size you can expect that bird to reach at full maturity. Strive to reach the max weight within that breed and keep them healthy and tasty! Or, make them great egg layers if that is your goal. They are what you feed them.

What is the "science" behind higher protein causing bleeding? I normally feed a 16/18 layer feed but during molt give them a higher protein feed just curious about why higher protein would cause bleeding. Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[Beekissed]

High proteins feeds can be pretty corrosive to the digestive tract, causing scours and possible bleeding of the intestinal walls. That's so for many animals. Old timers used to refer to that as "burning an animal up"...not sure why they call it that. I know we used to use calf manna to get our meat rabbits ready for show but you couldn't use too much of it as it would give them the runs and cause the opposite effect desired.

I've read that high proteins diets in birds can increase occurrence of bumble foot due to gout and also cause visceral gout. I sometimes think a lot of the leg problems experienced by broiler birds are due to a high pro diet combined with young, developing kidneys. Same for the heart disease they experience.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=2497
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=571
http://www.poultryshowcentral.com/chicken_gout.html

Everyone gets all excited about a balanced diet when discussing chickens but they refuse to see that proteins need to added to that list of balanced ingredients in the feed. For some reason in recent years there's been a huge switch to giving ever increasingly more protein to chickens...I think folks believe that will cause better laying and better health, but it's just not so. Too much of a good thing can kill ya. As with all things, a chicken can only metabolize so much of it before the excess is excreted in the kidneys and sometimes they cannot handle the overload, which is where uric crystals come in to play.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Do you really want my opinion or do you want me to agree that what your doing is okay? I think medicated chick starter and starter grower products are esential to get your birds growing and healthy first before you try to bulk them up. The protein level is actually higher than you might think. I believe the product we use on our chicks and juveniles is 18% up until they are about 13 weeks old and coop ready. At that point, I have my meat birds on a slightly different diet than my egg layers. Tinkering with protein and supplements is pretty crucial to how your chickens evolve and thrive.
Excessive high levels of 20% protein or greater "may" cause bleeding if fed to them too early on and possibly long term. Both feed reps from Purina and Nutrogena from my local feed store agree on this. There are time points throughout the yearly cycle that chickens need added protein which can benefit not only their health but also maintain growth and weight. Dont be led down the path that more is greater!
Keep in mind that chickens aren't turkeys and will never be! The quality of what you bring to the table is more important. It is important you recognize the standard norm weight of your breed and what size you can expect that bird to reach at full maturity. Strive to reach the max weight within that breed and keep them healthy and tasty! Or, make them great egg layers if that is your goal. They are what you feed them.

Everyone's comments (on either side) are very helpful and interesting. And yes, I really want your opinion (I have no need to have anyone agree with what I'm doing - I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want input...)

Keep the opinions coming!

- Ant Farm

 

[Our Roost]

Ha, its good that you should ask the "science" behind it. Early on I was feeding my chickens a feed labled for turkey, game birds and or meat bird poultry. It didn't specifically declare meat chickens and was at a 24% protein level. I started noticing blood in their stools and a tad around their beaks coming from within. It was at this point I inquired a feed and grain specialist from the manufacturers of these products. Certain feed products are designed for certain livestock. My wrong. In reality, it did more harm than good in my case as that feed was not intended for meat bird chickens. Sorry but I didnt get into the specifics of what the limitations of protein are desired or used. Most manufactured chicken feeds are 16% by design with added nutrients. I personally prefer 18% for all my birds. I found a 20% feed for meat birds and mix it with the 16% to achieve that medium of around 18% protein level. I hope that answered partly your question.

I meant to add that I only feed them this ratio during the fall and winter months.

 

[Beer can]

Hmm, never had any problems, never had bumble foot. But back to the drawing board. Great there is so many here with experience, I've heard so much conflicting info.

My sussex and giants were started on 24%, and then 20, but after the hawk attack and being put with the older laying flock they were on 16% for quite some time. When I culled all non-breeders and segregated the sussex and giants out I noticed the culls were not no where near as heavy as the cockerels of other breeds I processed last yr, so I put them back on 20%.

I wasn't concerned about the giants weight the frame size is there, they are huge but don't put on meat until later.
I've been told giants need more protein, and I've been told the opposite. I know large breed dogs are not supposed to be feed high protein, but chickens are not dogs?

I had excellent growth and no problems supplementing RIR, Wellies, Cochins, etc. cockerels last yr with extra protein, cottage cheese, condensed whey, ground fish. They did free range all day.

Comparing them to the sussex this yr on butcher weight I was actually wrong, I had put them as four weeks older than they were, the wife corrected me, wrote down June, it was July oops, (had to double check the date I took pics of the chicks cause I didn't believe her Lol)
guess their growth was better than I thought, they are much meatier now...Lol

 

[hellbender]

In my opinion, the QUALITY of protein fed to the birds is far more important than QUANTITY. Just an expressed opinion, not wanting to get into the meat of it with a long discussion or Q&A. I read all other opinions with great interest.