BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I think my point is that it can be harder and take longer to do more with less than more. I hope I have 5 or 6 more generations left in me.

I hope that I have 5 or 6 generations left in me to. If I do not, then I will be ok with that to.

 

[Beekissed]

No one said anything about hundreds of birds. That was not mentioned anywhere.

Oh, not here, but when breeding is discussed on the threads on BYC, most generally there is a huge emphasis put on hatching large numbers and the one number they usually mention is "at least a hundred", meaning to do it optimally, one would have to do even MORE than a hundred so as to not do the least they could get by with?

Was wondering why the need for that many chicks hatched to make improvements?

 

[ronott1]

Oh, not here, but when breeding is discussed on the threads on BYC, most generally there is a huge emphasis put on hatching large numbers and the one number they usually mention is "at least a hundred", meaning to do it optimally, one would have to do even MORE than a hundred so as to not do the least they could get by with?

Was wondering why the need for that many chicks hatched to make improvements?

I have seen those posts--makes it seem like you can't breed unless you work and a large scale.

 

[draye]

@Ant Farm...I'm going to give this some thought, then respond in a PM.  

I'd like to see it posted here. Along with the reasons why. We alln would like to learn what we need to look for. Even better put it on the NN thread also.

 

[bnjrob]

Oh, not here, but when breeding is discussed on the threads on BYC, most generally there is a huge emphasis put on hatching large numbers and the one number they usually mention is "at least a hundred", meaning to do it optimally, one would have to do even MORE than a hundred so as to not do the least they could get by with?

Was wondering why the need for that many chicks hatched to make improvements?

Yes most discussion, and even literature, mention hatching at least 100 chicks per year, if not more. I think it's more to see results faster.

When you're breeding for multiple specific traits at one time, you're going to wind up with fewer birds that have all of those traits uniformly good. You're gonna have some that have one or two traits that are good, but then another few birds will have different traits that are good and still other birds will have another one or two different traits that are good. So if you were to hatch 100, theoretically you should have more birds that actually possess the majority of the traits you are looking for, wrapped up in one package, rather than just having one or two of the traits you're looking for. This would let you improve faster with each generation.

 

[gjensen]

Oh, not here, but when breeding is discussed on the threads on BYC, most generally there is a huge emphasis put on hatching large numbers and the one number they usually mention is "at least a hundred", meaning to do it optimally, one would have to do even MORE than a hundred so as to not do the least they could get by with?

Was wondering why the need for that many chicks hatched to make improvements?

Bee, the trick is enough. What that enough is varies a lot from breed to breed, strain to strain, and flock to flock.

Part of the concern is depth. We do need to be deep enough, or hatch enough per hen, to preserve our progress.

The other part, and this is usually where it gets discussed is improving rare breeds. Some are in such bad shape that it takes real quantities to even hope to make progress. Projects require a lot of hatching. Breeds and strains of breeds that are in good shape take a lot less to maintain or make reasonable progress. Projects are about numbers to get started.

My NHs could be hatched in the 40s, and do well enough. I can get a bird when I need it, and relatively speaking, they are in good shape.

If I hatched my Catalanas in the 40s, I would be sitting still spinning my wheels.

So it is up to the individual to figure it out along the way. The birds tell on us. They tell us what to do. If we are serious about progress, and we are honest with ourselves, we figure out what is needed soon enough.

I think a good way to see it is per hen. We should be proving our breeders. It takes a certain quantity to know what they produce and not.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
I can wrap my mind around that concept. If a hen/cock can't produce a consistently good product in good ratios, then I'd not be breeding that one again. Having an alternative option to then breed would be a desirable thing.

Quote:
I'm thinking that this is at the root of it all. Getting something they want faster....pretty much the world view right now, isn't it?

I'll be the first to admit that instant gratification is a good motivator, as I take much joy in seeing good birds produced from a hatch, but most things that are worth anything at all usually take time to grow, develop, make, etc. Isn't the journey to a destination a goodly portion of the fun of going?

One thing, I think, that keeps me from getting into the ideal of all of that is that I have not one competitive bone in my body. I don't feel a need to get anywhere fast or faster than anyone else.

Even if I had the space, buildings, where with all and such to hatch 100 chicks a year I just wouldn't. I can't eat that many birds, nor use that many eggs, nor would I have available quality forage for that many birds consistently and season after season...this place would soon be picked clean and there would be an imbalance in the environment of this place that would just ruin everything I was trying to accomplish here. As much as I like improving my flock, they are not the sum total of the worth of this property and keeping a proper balance of the ecosystem here is paramount to how I want to raise my flock in the first place.

Nah...I don't buy into the whole go big or go home philosophy at all. Big isn't always better, it just looks impressive at first glance.

 

[dfr1973]

Oh, not here, but when breeding is discussed on the threads on BYC, most generally there is a huge emphasis put on hatching large numbers and the one number they usually mention is "at least a hundred", meaning to do it optimally, one would have to do even MORE than a hundred so as to not do the least they could get by with?

Was wondering why the need for that many chicks hatched to make improvements?

From what I've read, the large quantity only becomes necessary when doing crosses: established strain cross, variety cross, and especially when needing to do a breed outcross. Since I am technically doing a variety cross, I am planning on hatching large numbers in F1 and F2 generations for sure. Hubby seems to be looking forward to my ruthless culling of cockerels. LOL Wyandottes make for some good eatin'.

 

[gjensen]

Bee, it is not that it is a race. That is always what you resort to.

I cannot say it enough. If I did not hatch large quantities with the Catalanas starting out, I would get nowhere at all. It is not getting somewhere fast, it is getting anywhere at all. It is a recovery effort.

You said that you had your head wrapped around the per hen concept. Picture birds in poor shape. The birds in the worst shape (typical of rare and neglected breeds) need more per hen to have a chance of getting a few decent ones. Then projects where you are looking for a minority outcome require a lot . Like Kathy's Delaware. She had to hatch hundreds if she wanted to get what she wanted.

I could come up with a few dozen angles and considerations, but really, they would not be understood except by those that have been down the road a ways.

I am trying to explain it where it can be understood, but I am not being successful.

Concerning depth, I would recommend researching inbreeding coefficients. Concerning numbers, I would examine what it takes (numbers) to add and fix in place even simple recessives. My point is that with some looking and experience, these things start to fall in place.

 

[varidgerunner]

Huge numbers are needed in direct proportion to the amount of undesirable traits that are present. Starting with good breeding stock can put you very far ahead of the game. Many strains started with a pair, and built to a good number under management programs that required all birds to be hen hatched and raised free range, but the beginning pair was obviously without fault. When you linebreed tightly, you make your birds prepotent for the traits they have, good or bad. If they are outcrossed, they will pass those traits on to their offspring. If you breed a cross to a cross, you might breed hundreds and never get back the traits you wanted out of the original ingredients. Statistically, you should, but once Murphy has his way with your statistics you might never get the desired results.