Breeding meat birds

[Circle cypress farm]

When it’s roughly $2-$3 a bird why not just buy meat birds. That’s my view nowadays.

Yes, agree with sustainability. our goal is to be able to be self reliant on food as much as we can be. Figured it would be easiest to start with our chickens than our pig and steer. Learning as we go! I just want it to be worth our time and efforts and like you said not have scrawny meat birds we have to use two for a meal. If cross breeding helps, we are willing to give it a go!
On a side note- butchered 25 CX today! we ordered from Meyer hatchery and we were so happy with them! Haven’t weighted any just yet but they we good size! Will posts some pics and weights in a bit.

 

[WhyDoILikeChickens]

Yes, agree with sustainability. our goal is to be able to be self reliant on food as much as we can be. Figured it would be easiest to start with our chickens than our pig and steer. Learning as we go! I just want it to be worth our time and efforts and like you said not have scrawny meat birds we have to use two for a meal. If cross breeding helps, we are willing to give it a go!
On a side note- butchered 25 CX today! we ordered from Meyer hatchery and we were so happy with them! Haven’t weighted any just yet but they we good size! Will posts some pics and weights in a bit.

Ok so I cant stand an interesting question without an answer. I have been obsessing over this. This will likely be winded post open to all criticism and opinion. Also do your own research
On meyer website they say they use Cobb 500 X Ross 308 for CX. I thought WTH is that. Searched Cobb 500. A strain of broiler imported by Tyson over 30 years ago. Tyson imported a single bird type, the cobb 500. They have been using the same bird for decades which means they must be sustainable. Cobb 500 breeder management pdf gives full instructions. Also search YouTube for cobb 500. My research has led me to a link to cobb website where they said the cobb 500 is a cross between white cornish and white plymouth rock. But that page has been deleted from their website. Yes they use parent and GP flocks but I believe this is simply for selective breeding. Clearing the genetics of deformities and flaw. Other people think it means different types of birds. Here is a video which I believe supports my theory
@Molpet said it will take lots of birds though

 

[Circle cypress farm]

Ok so I cant stand an interesting question without an answer. I have been obsessing over this. This will likely be winded post open to all criticism and opinion. Also do your own research
On meyer website they say they use Cobb 500 X Ross 308 for CX. I thought WTH is that. Searched Cobb 500. A strain of broiler imported by Tyson over 30 years ago. Tyson imported a single bird type, the cobb 500. They have been using the same bird for decades which means they must be sustainable. Cobb 500 breeder management pdf gives full instructions. Also search YouTube for cobb 500. My research has led me to a link to cobb website where they said the cobb 500 is a cross between white cornish and white plymouth rock. But that page has been deleted from their website. Yes they use parent and GP flocks but I believe this is simply for selective breeding. Clearing the genetics of deformities and flaw. Other people think it means different types of birds. Here is a video which I believe supports my theory
@Molpet said it will take lots of birds though

okay, so you found what I couldn’t! Yay! Thank you! I started looking into these two breeds and It brought me to a pretty heated thread on BYC from 9 years ago! yikes! I am definitely going to keep digging but the quick look I have done I think it’s safe to say the closest a New be chicken breeder is going to get is by crossing the Cornish and a rock. and I’m cool with that. just breeding my own chickens in general is going to be an adventure! I really appreciate you looking into this. Will get to reading and learning for sure! So interesting!

 

[RoosterML]

Sustainable yes if you use your own stock but that’s what my extra cockerels are for. Meat Birds (specialty Broilers) at $1.56 each delivered I am all over that. They do require work and at the end I want a reward which is a one bird meal. My extra cockerels are perfect to split for the grill. What else can you ask for.

 

[WhyDoILikeChickens]

okay, so you found what I couldn’t! Yay! Thank you! I started looking into these two breeds and It brought me to a pretty heated thread on BYC from 9 years ago! yikes! I am definitely going to keep digging but the quick look I have done I think it’s safe to say the closest a New be chicken breeder is going to get is by crossing the Cornish and a rock. and I’m cool with that. just breeding my own chickens in general is going to be an adventure! I really appreciate you looking into this. Will get to reading and learning for sure! So interesting!

I've been researching and probably read all the heated arguments you did. Several people said 4 GP flocks then 2 parent flocks to get CX but nobody could say what they were. After finding this article last night
https://thepoultrysite.com/articles/how-the-cobb-500-changed-the-us-market
I almost couldn't sleep. Felt like I found a treasure map.
I don't mean to knock the wisdom of anyone else here but the answer was incomplete. If you seen House MD I share that trait. An interesting question would haunt me for years until I found the answer.
Tyson imported 1 type of bird (cobb 500) and the entire current flock is the same bird. CX have to be sustainable. But it does take a scientific approach.
Again I have not done the ground work, this is only theory and research.

 

[Molpet]

I've been researching and probably read all the heated arguments you did. Several people said 4 GP flocks then 2 parent flocks to get CX but nobody could say what they were. After finding this article last night
https://thepoultrysite.com/articles/how-the-cobb-500-changed-the-us-market
I almost couldn't sleep. Felt like I found a treasure map.
I don't mean to knock the wisdom of anyone else here but the answer was incomplete. If you seen House MD I share that trait. An interesting question would haunt me for years until I found the answer.
Tyson imported 1 type of bird (cobb 500) and the entire current flock is the same bird. CX have to be sustainable. But it does take a scientific approach.
Again I have not done the ground work, this is only theory and research.

Used to be, on the Cobb site, they had raising guidelines on grandparents and parents.

 

[RiverOtter]

Yes, agree with sustainability. our goal is to be able to be self reliant on food as much as we can be.

Ok, I gotta ask ... Why is it that everyone concerned about sustainability gets all heated over not buying chicks once a year? Why aren't you guys upset about that weekly (or more) bag of lay pellets? I would think that it's a heck of a lot more sustainable to once a year, buy some chicks *and be able to feed them*, then keep a breeding flock that you have to BUY feed for year round?
Easier to start with a corn patch than with a steer, pig, OR chickens.

Although frankly if you were to tell me that I had a month to get ready, and then I could never buy any meat ever again for the rest of my life, I could only raise it and it's food chicken would become a rare treat and I'd eat rabbit. Like pretty much everyone before the 40s.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The way I read that they used the Vantress male line and the Cobb female line to make the Cobb 500. The company was Cobb Vantress Inc. So yes, separate male and female lines combine to make that broiler, even today. I'll copy a line from that article to show part of why I think this.

In the search for a productive female that would fit this new direction

I don't know if the Cobb 500 takes advantage of dwarfism, some broiler lines do. Dwarfism is a recessive sex linked trait that reduces the size of the bird, reducing feed costs and some of the problems with overgrowth. Not sure how familiar you are with sex linked breeding, but this would enable the entire female side to be dwarf as long as the male side is pure for not-dwarf. I'll offer this as an example of the genetic tweaking that has gone on with the broilers over the years.

Selective breeding to develop that fast growth takes generations of chickens. You are not going to get the growth you see in today's Cornish X with a simple cross of a true Cornish with a White Rock. Generations of chickens means years. By all means try that cross. I trust what I see more than what I read on the internet so see for yourself. You should get a bird with more breast meat than most other crosses since you have that Cornish in there. Try to start with the best stock you can. The more chicks you hatch the better your chances of getting good breeders. I'm not prepared to hatch and raise more than I can eat to get really good choices for breeders in my backyard.

I'm basing the following on my own thoughts, not anything I've read specifically about the broilers. What is the real purpose of the grandparent flocks? Why don't you just have two parent flocks? The way hybrids work it would seem inconsistent to have separate important traits in the flocks that combine to make the father of the broiler though you do want different traits in the flocks that make the father versus the mother of the broiler. I think the grandparent flocks for the purpose of genetic diversity, instead of just having two parent flocks.

When you create a new breed or in this case a type, you want to remove all traits that don't give you what you want. A simple example, if you want a white bird get rid if any genetic diversity would give you any other color. You want to eliminate certain genetic traits that give you diversity in critical traits.

But if you don't maintain genetic diversity in other traits over generations they become less thrifty. They can lose fertility or become more susceptible to diseases. Inbreeding is how these birds were originally developed, but once you get to a certain point you have to manage inbreeding. Breeders have different techniques for that, I don't know which techniques are used on the broiler grandparent flocks. That's part of how they manage them. They have maintained these flocks for decades without them becoming too inbred.

But with the parent flocks I suspect they want to take advantage of hybrid vigor. When you cross two different genetic lines you often get a boost due to what we call hybrid vigor. You don't have to cross two different breeds to take advantage of this. Even if you cross two strains of Delaware from different flocks that have been genetically separated for several generations you can get a boost in hybrid vigor.

Developing and managing the Cornish X is a lot more than just genetics. But please, try it yourself and come back on here to report your results. It's how you and we learn.

 

[WhyDoILikeChickens]

The way I read that they used the Vantress male line and the Cobb female line to make the Cobb 500. The company was Cobb Vantress Inc. So yes, separate male and female lines combine to make that broiler, even today. I'll copy a line from that article to show part of why I think this.

In the search for a productive female that would fit this new direction

I don't know if the Cobb 500 takes advantage of dwarfism, some broiler lines do. Dwarfism is a recessive sex linked trait that reduces the size of the bird, reducing feed costs and some of the problems with overgrowth. Not sure how familiar you are with sex linked breeding, but this would enable the entire female side to be dwarf as long as the male side is pure for not-dwarf. I'll offer this as an example of the genetic tweaking that has gone on with the broilers over the years.

Selective breeding to develop that fast growth takes generations of chickens. You are not going to get the growth you see in today's Cornish X with a simple cross of a true Cornish with a White Rock. Generations of chickens means years. By all means try that cross. I trust what I see more than what I read on the internet so see for yourself. You should get a bird with more breast meat than most other crosses since you have that Cornish in there. Try to start with the best stock you can. The more chicks you hatch the better your chances of getting good breeders. I'm not prepared to hatch and raise more than I can eat to get really good choices for breeders in my backyard.

I'm basing the following on my own thoughts, not anything I've read specifically about the broilers. What is the real purpose of the grandparent flocks? Why don't you just have two parent flocks? The way hybrids work it would seem inconsistent to have separate important traits in the flocks that combine to make the father of the broiler though you do want different traits in the flocks that make the father versus the mother of the broiler. I think the grandparent flocks for the purpose of genetic diversity, instead of just having two parent flocks.

When you create a new breed or in this case a type, you want to remove all traits that don't give you what you want. A simple example, if you want a white bird get rid if any genetic diversity would give you any other color. You want to eliminate certain genetic traits that give you diversity in critical traits.

But if you don't maintain genetic diversity in other traits over generations they become less thrifty. They can lose fertility or become more susceptible to diseases. Inbreeding is how these birds were originally developed, but once you get to a certain point you have to manage inbreeding. Breeders have different techniques for that, I don't know which techniques are used on the broiler grandparent flocks. That's part of how they manage them. They have maintained these flocks for decades without them becoming too inbred.

But with the parent flocks I suspect they want to take advantage of hybrid vigor. When you cross two different genetic lines you often get a boost due to what we call hybrid vigor. You don't have to cross two different breeds to take advantage of this. Even if you cross two strains of Delaware from different flocks that have been genetically separated for several generations you can get a boost in hybrid vigor.

Developing and managing the Cornish X is a lot more than just genetics. But please, try it yourself and come back on here to report your results. It's how you and we learn.

So I've just seen it in dozens of threads nobody knows how to make a CX. I think the question has become generalized from years of hearing the same question over and over which you guys have lots of patience for and we appreciate that.

The question is really 2 questions
1. How do you make CX ( nobody knows the answer ).
2. Is it a sustainable breed.
Lots of people ask are they a sustainable breed but everyone says no. I just think that's wrong.
Tyson imported a single type of bird and it is still the same bird today. They have been using the cobb 500. When this bird was bred in England yes they likely used several breeds for generations but today the cx is the same bird. Tyson didn't import 7 different flocks. They imported 1800 eggs of 1 bird and today we have the great great great grand babies. They must be using CX as breeding pairs. Not to mention hatcheries. Now the bird certainly has some mortality issues and if u check any of the links in my posts they approach in a purely scientific manner. They measure feed by Gram per kilo body weight..... not "about this much" like most of us weigh our feed. And feed, lighting, genetics, temperature is completely controlled from hatching. Most of us are hobbyists.
Hard to breed yes. 1 male and 9 female gold comets would make 2200 chickens a year (ish). Even I could get those results.
Would need at least triple the CX for same results. And that doesn't include culling imperfections.
Some one got a CX to live a year and was laying eggs. Though compared to me they are god level at chickening.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Check this out to see how one Canadian company manages their parent flock.