Breeding two mutations.

[Pyxis]

Extended black is recessive...or at least, incompletely dominant... It could have been hiding out in any of the other ducks.

I do suspect Muscovy cross though. If you google "Muscovy crosses", you will see a lot of similar looking ducks.

I was under the impression that extended black (E) was dominant and that it was e+ that is recessive, is that not the case? I got my information from here:

http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page6.html

Which says it's dominant.

Actually, I learned a lot about genetics from your old posts, like this one, where you said extended black was dominant:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/runner-duck-genetics.436428/#post-5417548

Is there new info out now that says it's recessive or incompletely dominant?

 

[Senna95]

I was under the impression that extended black (E) was dominant and that it was e+ that is recessive, is that not the case? I got my information from here:

http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page6.html

Which says it's dominant.

Actually, I learned a lot about genetics from your old posts, like this one, where you said extended black was dominant:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/runner-duck-genetics.436428/#post-5417548

Is there new info out now that says it's recessive or incompletely dominant?

Awe, man! I've been out of it for a while. I'll have to double check it then. It's not a color I normally work with, so you might be right. I'll get back with you....sit tight

 

[Senna95]

I was under the impression that extended black (E) was dominant and that it was e+ that is recessive, is that not the case? I got my information from here:

http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page6.html

Which says it's dominant.

Actually, I learned a lot about genetics from your old posts, like this one, where you said extended black was dominant:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/runner-duck-genetics.436428/#post-5417548

Is there new info out now that says it's recessive or incompletely dominant?

Okay, so here's the deal: Some sources say it is dominant, and some say it is incompletely dominant. I am inclined to believe the 2nd because I bred a cayugan duck to a Rouen once, and what we got was an odd combination of dusky and wild pattern: a female with no eye stripes, no wing speculum (both dusky traits) yet still had the white feathers under her wing (true duskies would have dark). There was no sign of extended black on her at all. Of course it is always possible that she was a cayugan that only had one copy of the extended black gene...but I doubt that. While I learned a lot from the 2 duck genetics color "Bibles" (Dave Holderread's "Story's Guide to Raising Ducks" and The Ashton's "Colour Breeding in Domestic Ducks"), even those authors will admit that there is still a lot unknown. And my personal experience over the last 15 years has been the same. I see a lot of colors pop up that don't make sense "strictly by the book". What we need is some good record keeping over multiple generations with lots of pictures.

 

[Pyxis]

Okay, so here's the deal: Some sources say it is dominant, and some say it is incompletely dominant. I am inclined to believe the 2nd because I bred a cayugan duck to a Rouen once, and what we got was an odd combination of dusky and wild pattern: a female with no eye stripes, no wing speculum (both dusky traits) yet still had the white feathers under her wing (true duskies would have dark). There was no sign of extended black on her at all. Of course it is always possible that she was a cayugan that only had one copy of the extended black gene...but I doubt that. While I learned a lot from the 2 duck genetics color "Bibles" (Dave Holderread's "Story's Guide to Raising Ducks" and The Ashton's "Colour Breeding in Domestic Ducks"), even those authors will admit that there is still a lot unknown. And my personal experience over the last 15 years has been the same. I see a lot of colors pop up that don't make sense "strictly by the book". What we need is some good record keeping over multiple generations with lots of pictures.

Very interesting. I'll have to play around with it some here. I have a lot of Calls with colors based on Extended Black. Next spring I'll do test breeding with some of my mallard based colors and keep records on what happens.

I do know someone on here recently bred a rouen drake to a Cayuga hen and got all black ducklings, which would make sense if extended black was dominant.

 

[Senna95]

Very interesting. I'll have to play around with it some here. I have a lot of Calls with colors based on Extended Black. Next spring I'll do test breeding with some of my mallard based colors and keep records on what happens.

I do know someone on here recently bred a rouen drake to a Cayuga hen and got all black ducklings, which would make sense if extended black was dominant.

Looking forward to seeing your results!

 

[WVduckchick]

If extended black were not dominant, that would throw a wrench in many breedings!

 

[Senna95]

If extended black were not dominant, that would throw a wrench in many breedings!

Like I said, I haven't done a lot with that color. However, there is a reason that breeders stay in certain color "groups", such as blue/chocolate/black. Most birds in those colors would be homozygous for extended black, so the offspring would all be homozygous as well. Once you start mixing in wild type or, as in this case: Muscovy colors, things get really complicated.

Incidently: Holderread in his newest addition of Story's Guide also claims that black is incompletely dominant.

 

[WVduckchick]

Incidently: Holderread in his newest addition of Story's Guide also claims that black is incompletely dominant.

Well I’ll be dipped. I see that in my book.

 

[Pyxis]

"Incomplete dominance is a form of intermediate inheritance in which one allele for a specific trait is not completely expressed over its paired allele. This results in a third phenotype in which the expressed physical trait is a combination of the phenotypes of both alleles."

So the theory would be, any duck with one copy of E and one copy of e+ would be neither, but rather some kind of in-between color. Like the blue dilution gene, which is incompletely dominant, making ducks blue with one copy and silver with two.

I can do a breeding next year to see if that's true I have ducks I know are homozygous for E and e+. Crossing them should then have offspring which are Ee+, and then I can see what color they end up.

 

[Houndhunter77]

Yes, that's what's making me think crosses, they definitely look like they could be.

@Houndhunter77, didn't you say you had the muscovies with the other ducks for awhile? Did you incubate these two ducks yourself? If so, do you remember how long it took them to hatch?

Either they're crosses or they're a new mutation, because there's no extended black gene in any of the mallard derived parents.

If they're muscovy crosses, they'll be sterile.

Yes the both hatched right on 28 days. I did have the moscoveys with them in the spring for a while. But i got those eggs from the khaki nest after they were gone. Not sure what they are. Its gonna be cool to see what comes from them.