Bresse Chickens

[BCMaraniac]

A happy coincidence today. This morning I did a big post on Bresse and mentioned that I thought some of my hens were close to laying. I came home from work and was presented with my first AB pullet egg!

 

[DCchicken]

A happy coincidence today. This morning I did a big post on Bresse and mentioned that I thought some of my hens were close to laying. I came home from work and was presented with my first AB pullet egg!

How old are you pullets?

 

[racinchickins]

How old are you pullets?

19 weeks. Hatched in late August.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: In a population of 10 it is really hard to pick out one very good example to keep for breeding; on the heritage thread the discussion inally rolled around to raising 100-200 birds to select the really best for breeding. I know I have seen enough variation among the birds I have ( SS) that I wish I had 100 to pick from as all are less than I would like, and if I breed " less than" the next generation will also be " less than" and improvement will be difficult. DId that make sense?? lol

Most folks keep 2 cocks and a few hens. I learned to keep a rotationalsystem, so yes I agree, too easy to paint yourself into the corner genetically with so few breeder birds. Plan on exchanging stock with someone else regularly.

Don Schrider suggested having a partner to swap with every year. BOth maintain two pens or a total of 3 pens, and every year best cckl goes to partner from the swap pen.

IMO a lot more time should be spent breeding numbers up before any consderiation is put in a SOP. After all the French government selects the legitimate bresse breeders.

More of a focus should be spent on production rather than a creating a SOP

If you don't know what you are breeding for , how can we all get there? THe Sussex wrote there SOP and then spent decades more getting there in the UK. Fortunately most of the breese come from a few sources and if people select the breeders well, the future generations will not be too different from each other. BUt without and SOP for a guide, we can choose our own characterisitcs to breed for and ulitmately that makes the birds much more different than alike.

Respectfully, the French government will not be influencing the breeder stock here. American breeding systems are FAAAR different from the one- for- all style governance of the European populace. The reality is that Americans have always decided what they want to breed and the result is a population of livestock that is widely varied. The SOP would help moderate that variation.

If anyone follows Walt LEonard, there has been some discussion about which birds are up for consideration on the Heritage thread ealier in Dec, and reaching APA consideration is at least 5 years of work, and usually mroe. HE said the black copper marans first presentation was a miserable failure ( my words not his) and only ONE bird was SOP acceptable when far more need to be for status. I'm forgetting the number it is is like 60% must meet SOP. IF we don't have an SOP then how can we breed toward it, or maintain it??

I"m all for production traits and given that the primary use is meat, then that should be well supported by an SOP. Egg production is encumbant on each individual breeder. I am not a fan ofthe SOP when it is used to product a pretty bird that has lost much of its production qualities. That is up to the breeders to maintain that quality in their stock.

Hope I haven't offended anyone. Certainly didn't mean to if I have. I think a picture is worth a thousand words and an SOP is far more meaningful and better defined with excellent examples to strive for.

 

[call ducks]

Quote:
Ahh but it was different with sussex - Sussex had the gene pool to do that with sussex were a landfowl more or less. They had a higher level of heteros and genetic variability before they started selecting.

The thing about a SOP is it won't help breeders learn how to select birds that make a fine table fowl - in reality what is presented as a Bresse is a knock off at best but I digress. In order for the Bresse to be sustainable in the long run and ensure that productivity is kept breeders should learn how to select for traits, to do test crosses not for looks but for heteros. Small inbred flocks will do the bresse no good in selection for production traits and in turn they will start to be a slower growing bird. They have been bred with out a standard for hundreds of years and there most likely was a reason for that.

Most recent breeds that have been imported have been set up for failure from the begging. Few breeders imported, few breeding groups the first years of small numbers, and than many of even smaller numbers. If the "american bresse" are to be successful they must maintain their production traits and in order for them to maintain their production traits we need people that know what to look for with out looking to a written guide. Variation within animal species is good not bad. In order for the "american bresse" to be successful some one needs to raise and cull large numbers each year. In the way that a new species becomes invasive.


People can breed toward it buy selecting the fastest growing birds, by breeding large numbers, and selecting for production traits. The poultry artisans did this with the first production poultry so it should be doable today.

 

[Arielle]

I pretty much agree with you. To kep up heterosis means a willingness to buy stock from each other regularly. We can increase the hybrid vigor by doing this.

Based on the pics I saw on line for Netherland birds, they looked alike-- many homozygous genes in play. Clearly the birds have an expected look to the body style and coloring. As far as I can see, the breese is selected for a specific body type, large breast area, and white feathering, etc. Oh right-- blue legs.

This breed faces the same plight that all new breeds face when the numbers of breeders stock is very low. THe need for new blood is real and new blood should be contintually imported. However until that happens, the past is likely to repeat itself.:Breeds already here are often crossed with that new breed and a morphed breed emerges. THis has been going on for hundreds of years in chickens, sheep, pigs, cattle etc. THe real question is , is the new "breed" an improvement over other breeds that are currently available?

 

[call ducks]

I pretty much agree with you. To kep up heterosis means a willingness to buy stock from each other regularly. We can increase the hybrid vigor by doing this.

Based on the pics I saw on line for Netherland birds, they looked alike-- many homozygous genes in play. Clearly the birds have an expected look to the body style and coloring. As far as I can see, the breese is selected for a specific body type, large breast area, and white feathering, etc. Oh right-- blue legs.

This breed faces the same plight that all new breeds face when the numbers of breeders stock is very low. THe need for new blood is real and new blood should be contintually imported. However until that happens, the past is likely to repeat itself.:Breeds already here are often crossed with that new breed and a morphed breed emerges. THis has been going on for hundreds of years in chickens, sheep, pigs, cattle etc. THe real question is , is the new "breed" an improvement over other breeds that are currently available?

Indeed the bresse should be selected for those traits - but also growth rates after all one must not forget they are a production breed. I would not be afraid to cross these with some nice white Cornish and see what emerges.

It can often depend. In my mind there are poultry artisans and breeders. The first of whom are a dying breed. Poultry artisans can take different birds and shape it into something that is usable, so now most of the good ones end up working for large genetic corps. And breeders that like to experiment and can breed good birds just maybe does not have the experience to take something from idea in head to bird walking around. There are a few Amish 'poultry artisans' left in PA, and a few newer emerging ones in NA. A need for hands on selection tips on production traits is now greater than ever.

 

[Arielle]

I personally like the ABLC information for selection. That info was written by Don Schreider--

As for the artisans-- as with anthing only a few do the designing, and the rest of us raise, butcher and sell. I feel I can still accomplish my goals without having to be the best of the best-- and realize that while improving a breedis an honorable endevor, that ability is beyond me.I don't expect to become a great breeder not a good breeder; I will settle for an adequate breeder-- I still have too much to learn.

 

[call ducks]

If anyone is interested about production traits the ALBC has some good guides: http://albc-usa.etapwss.com/images/uploads/docs/ALBCchicken_assessment-1.pdf

It's not great but a good start

 

[alisar]

I feel a little awkward posting this after the talk of SOP - but you guys wanna see blue spitzhauben over bresse babies? Please cover this post with your hand if you don't want to see the abominations that hatched out for the NYD hatch. Look at that interesting comb! Only two made it - I don't know if it was our unusually dry/hot weather but I had a serious problem with shrink wrapping - these two had to be assisted after pipping, the others didn't even pip.












They have that Bresse fever for life. Super vigorous - especially after the ordeal of getting shrink wrapped!