Buckeye Breed Thread

[Blueface]

Even Joe can tell you that he is having to work on size now, because he concentrated on other things to begin with.

I was fortunate to have nice size and color when I selected my brood fowl. The overal size on my fowl are right were they should be. The older mature fowl are actually larger than the standard suggests. I've paid attention to all features as a collective whole from day 1.

 

[Blueface]

It's up to each breeder to decide what traits they need to focus on in their breeding programs to improve future generations.

And that is what it really boils down to! Not everyone is going to view things in the same light. Not everyone is going to interpret what they read the same either. Just do things how you think they should be done and enjoy what you are doing. If you can't at least do that.......then picking up a different hobby is suggested. Beginners will get the "full effect" when reading everyones comments and make their own decisions and interpretations. There is a continually steam on information flooding out of the involved respective groups. No one here is going to change anyones minds.

 

[Blueface]

If you have no slate undercolor in any breeders, it won't magically appear. In general the lack of undercolor will leave you without the shine in the sun. Yes you will have a darker and lighter both with and without the slate bar. And yes I have buckeyes on the ground. And in their coops too. I am not here to argue. The point is that the slate bar is in the SOP. Saying it isnt necessary if you have good type is ridiculous. Again, color, undercolor, type, and "heart girth" is all possible with good breeding. I too am breeding for eggs and meat. But it's possible to get good production, nice big carcass, and have the proper color and undercolor all at the same time.

I tend to agree with you DarkRedBird. Undercolor needs to be there and it will be much harder to optimize if it wasn't there to begin with. I feel it does help with the overall sheen appearance(proper husbandry and feed selection helps this as well). The breed creator viewed and noted this observation. She felt undercolor played a role and wrote recorded her thoughts for a reason! I have had birds without undercolor and they were used for utility purposes; not to be included into the brood pens. I've also had birds they had undercolor all of the way to the body void of any clear bar. I'd rather have that than the lack of undercolor entirely, but that is just me. I've witnessed far more light color birds with no undercolor vs really dark birds with no undercolor. I've also witnessed very light colored birds decent undercolor as well. All goes back to breed interpretations......you are the one throwing feed at them....it's the breeders call. I'll argue color any day of the week, but it's just fall on deaf ears with most. I agree with you "it's possible to get good production, nice big carcass, an have the proper color and undercolor all at the same time"..........

 

[Blueface]

Here is a decent pic of a buckeye cockerel's head. The lobes are not as large as many tend to get.

 

[cgmccary]

I tend to agree with you DarkRedBird. Undercolor needs to be there and it will be much harder to optimize if it wasn't there to begin with. I feel it does help with the overall sheen appearance(proper husbandry and feed selection helps this as well). The breed creator viewed and noted this observation. She felt undercolor played a role and wrote recorded her thoughts for a reason! I have had birds without undercolor and they were used for utility purposes; not to be included into the brood pens. I've also had birds they had undercolor all of the way to the body void of any clear bar. I'd rather have that than the lack of undercolor entirely, but that is just me. I've witnessed far more light color birds with no undercolor vs really dark birds with no undercolor. I've also witnessed very light colored birds decent undercolor as well. All goes back to breed interpretations......you are the one throwing feed at them....it's the breeders call. I'll argue color any day of the week, but it's just fall on deaf ears with most. I agree with you "it's possible to get good production, nice big carcass, an have the proper color and undercolor all at the same time"..........

My experience with undercolor is not the same. I think every one of my lighter hens have a good slate bar in the their back. I did not keep them for their slate bars or their color but for their type. Some of my hens that are too dark do not seem to be blessed with any better a slate bar than the light ones. With my males, there doesn't seem to be a correlation one way or the other. I am not repeating what anyone is telling me; this is what I have observed with my Buckeyes, fwiw.

Metcalf, I assume, had a good deal to say about how the SOP was first written and for whatever reason, she chose not to DQ a bird that did not have it. The only DQ specific to Buckeyes is an entirely white feather in the outer plumage so white seems to be what she considered the big no-no (white on the earlobes was also included as a DQ in the earlier SOPs). Metcalf also lived a long life and never sought to change the color of the Buckeye which has remained the same since its creation. I assume she could have sought a change, after-all, she was the breed's creator. The subtle differences in early color descriptions are semantics -- describing the same thing.

I agree one can work on all of it ALL at the same time, why not? Don't all breeders of all breeds work on it ALL at the same time? I don't argue with that. I guess that is why there are so many nice, large fowl out there.

A lot of people, including myself, hatch small numbers of chicks every season (i.e. enough for my replacements and meat & for a couple of people who request each year). I do not hatch the quantities of hundreds that others hatch each year -- so for me, hatching a few chicks each season, when I am forced to select a bird with better type vs. the bird with better color (which happens sometimes, not often), then I am picking the better type bird.

I don't ever have a bird that has it all. I assume that there are others who fall in my category in this regard. If I could increase the numbers I hatch, I am am sure I would have a wider range of choices and could pick a Buckeye that had it all. My birds meet SOP weight and body type, and I have been able to get that & maintain it with small hatches because I started with some good genetics and also because I select first for type. All that being said, my Buckeyes do not do badly at the shows with a wide spectrum of judges. I understand the beginner's obsession with color; I have not found color in Buckeyes to be as problematic as some. I don't think I have had a male who did not have shiny feathers -- is this an issue elsewhere? I haven't seen the issue. The more serious issues I have seen in some Buckeyes are body or other issues: lacking adequate heart girth, appearing rangy and looking small all around (a body depth problem), small skull and in one here or there, legs too short -- these issues are more difficult to correct. Rather than get all hung up on exact shade or argue about what "rich mahogany bay" looks like, I like a Buckeye that is most even in shade. You can disagree, but this is my honest opinion.

I am not advocating everyone do it my way but simply saying what has worked for me. Since I have only been breeding Buckeyes for about 7 years now, I am only a beginner & still have a lot to learn. I am open to new insights and do not believe I have all the answers. Where my observations conflicts with what is being said by someone simply repeating what others are telling them, I do not mind speaking my mind.

 

[Tailfeathers]

Just a couple of quick comments.

1) I actually have a Buckeye cockerel that had one white feather turn up. I can't remember now if it's in his saddle but I think so. Never had it before so I have no idea where it came from but obviously I'm not breeding him.

2) I do not "work on it ALL at the same time". It may just be due to my not being the brightest bulb in the socket but I have found the only way I can make any improvements is to pick one trait, or perhaps two at the very most, and linebreed them until the trait is set. Then I move on to another trait. I took this approach from Kenny Troiano's writings in the Poultry Press so it's not my idea. I've found Kenny's articles to be the most instructive and helpful of anything I've read. By carefully selecting a specific male and female(s), toe-punching their offspring accordingly, ensuring that no "accidents" happen, and by keeping meticulous records, I've been able to make specific improvements in all four of the breeds I work with.

3) Having said that, I too am still learning every year. Mostly from my mistakes! I often tell folks my breeding program is simple - if it works, do it again. If not, don't do it anymore. However, I recently found out the hard way that even that can't be counted on. Now I've learned that one has to keep in mind the necessity of dominant vs. recessive genes and prioritize their breeding program accordingly. For example, (and I'm not picking on you here Chris but just using this as an example because I've seen you bring it up before) let's say one is mostly focused on skull size and maybe the pelvic bones. So they select their breeding birds accordingly. While simultaneously not giving any consideration to leg color. Or, even if they do consider it as they consider "all" things to look at, they don't prioritize it high enough. The yellow leg gene is recessive and sex-linked (thanks to Kenny letting me know that in a PP article a few months back!) and as such the yellow can very quickly disappear from a flock. Trust me, I know this from experience. I got so tunnel-visioned on a couple of things I was working on with two of my breeds that I almost lost the yellow leg altogether. When all your birds look the same, you may not even notice that something is disappearing in your flock until you see them standing next to another bird in the next cage over at a show.

Or maybe that only happens to guys like me who aren't the brightest bulb in the socket.

God Bless,

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
You made me aware of leg color when you first commented on it as I believed it's presence or absence in Buckeyes more diet related (if you didn't grade anything else in). I was being facetious when I commented about working on it ALL at the same time. When I look at skull width, I use it in combination with other things (heart girth, shank thickness, weight, back width throughout length and not tapering off, spacing between legs, tail spread (i.e. not pinched), length of shank, fullness of breast, keel to pelvic space, straightness & length of keel -- at least in mine, one bird will not be first place in all these so for me the highlighted few may be deal breakers.

With regard to perfect comb, color, etc., I look for the slate bar and the overall evenness of color first, then overall shade. I will cull for black in the breast or for smudge on wing bows. There are usually candidates lacking these things so I have not run into the problem of having ones without these defects. My problem with selecting is that all those body characteristics is not the best in one candidate so I have to pick and choose. I can see with more chicks , say a few hundred rather than a few dozen, I would have a better selection but God willing, that will have to wait until I retire. It is all I can do to keep up with my small numbers in the small amount of time I have in the morning and evenings when I get home from a long day at work or before I begin it. I usually work 2-3 hours in the morning and a couple of hours when I get home (after a 9-11+ hour day of my real job). Got to run.

 

[loanwizard]

Wow! You breeders get serious lol!
I have talked to a member here and within a couple of weeks, I plan to order 25 or so chicks.

I am ordering for egg production, and to breed eventually. I wish to maintain a flock of 60-80 birds, and hope that i get lucky in picking the right hens and roosters to keep the breed as true as I can, but honestly, I highly doubt if I ever show a bird, unless it is a photo posted on a website lol.....

Incidentally, the birds I plan to get will be of the Urch line.

Do y'all have pedigree's for these birds, or a registry or something?

I would just like to carry on a tradition in addition to what I regularly do, so I won't be involved with these "debates".

Shawn

 

[ocap]

Wow! You breeders get serious lol!
I have talked to a member here and within a couple of weeks, I plan to order 25 or so chicks.

I am ordering for egg production, and to breed eventually. I wish to maintain a flock of 60-80 birds, and hope that i get lucky in picking the right hens and roosters to keep the breed as true as I can, but honestly, I highly doubt if I ever show a bird, unless it is a photo posted on a website lol.....

Incidentally, the birds I plan to get will be of the Urch line.

Do y'all have pedigree's for these birds, or a registry or something?

I would just like to carry on a tradition in addition to what I regularly do, so I won't be involved with these "debates".

Shawn

talked with Mr. Urch a short while back and his last date to ship chicks this year is May 20

 

[loanwizard]

I am ready any time starting next week.